13-09-2003 00:47									#31
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Better that than starving to death in a shanty town, which is where all those displaced farmers end up.

Like the left has been successful at keeping third-world farmers from getting displaced.

I suppose the party has reeducation camps for hurricanes, droughts, pests and overworked soils?

	13-09-2003 00:48									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue Yes the EU are far worse at it, but the US is not blameless at all either.

Agree with your post, just not the myth that the EU is so much worse. Agro subsidies as measured by the OECD are about 100 billion $ in both blocks; the broadest measure gives 2 % for the EU and 1.5 % of GDP for the US.

Don't have the sources at hand, just a quick search:

http://migration.ucdavis.edu/rmn/ar...2002-17rmn.html

The same is for tariffs, there was an Oxfam report that shows both about equally guilty.

Two other interesting tidbits:

"The highest share-of-GDP transfers to farmers were in Turkey and Korea, where about five percent of GDP was transferred to agriculture in 2001"

"The most closely watched measure of government support for agriculture is the PSE, which ranged from one to four percent in New Zealand and Australia to 60 percent or more in Japan, Korea, Norway and Switzerland."

	13-09-2003 00:49									#33
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MtG, this isn't about economic development... since when did large MNC's and corporate farmers begin to give a **** about people in third-world countries?

	13-09-2003 00:49									#34
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And yet, unless those poor states are able to begin by exporting agricultural produce so that they can then gather tax revenue, build up an internal base of savings to develop local business (specially lots of small business for services), these people will not move out of poverty..foreign investement can only go so far, and it is not enough to build up an economy: you need the locals to have enough wealth to ionvest in their own state: tariffs and other handouts to corporate farms prevents this, and if anything sucks money out of the third world.

	13-09-2003 00:49									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue first world agriculture would be dying (it is anyway, but slowly

That's not true. Even as less land is available for agricutlure every year, more and more crops are being produced. What's dying is farming as a way of life and it becoming an industry in the hands of a few instead.

	13-09-2003 00:49									#36
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler Agree with your post, just not the myth that the EU is so much worse. Agro subsidies as measured by the OECD are about 100 billion $ in both blocks; the broadest measure gives 2 % for the EU and 1.5 % of GDP for the US.

We went over this before and on a per unit basis the EU was much worse.

	13-09-2003 00:50									#37
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quote: Originally posted by GePap The only way to know that US and EU farners can produce with lower cost s to end their subsidies and let them compete...Oh lord, but we can;t have that, can we!?

This is what democracy brings In the short-term it will make us worse off, thus the voters won't go for it. In the long term (say 20 or 30 years) it will mean we have a viable trading partner who can supply us with cheap agriculture, and means we can stop paying huge sums to subsidize our own farmers.

quote: Originally posted by GePap Subsidies and tariffs by the rch states on the poor is the greatest hypocrasy in the world economy today.

Couldn't have put it better myself.

	13-09-2003 00:52									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin We went over this before and on a per unit basis the EU was much worse.

And on a per farmer base the US is much worse. You can play the different agro structures both ways.

	13-09-2003 00:54									#39
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Per farmer doesn't matter since the average US farm is many times larger then the average Euro farm. The only satistic that matters is per unit because then you are comparing like with like.

	13-09-2003 00:55									#40
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Like the left has been successful at keeping third-world farmers from getting displaced.

Cuba and Nicaragua certainly had far fewer shanty towns than their neighbors . . . at least until Nicaracgua cried uncle and elected the U.S.'s pets.

quote: I suppose the party has reeducation camps for hurricanes, droughts, pests and overworked soils?

Something like that.

	13-09-2003 00:56									#41
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara That's not true. Even as less land is available for agricutlure every year, more and more crops are being produced. What's dying is farming as a way of life and it becoming an industry in the hands of a few instead.

Without subsidies, it would die. In the UK, it already is, however it is doing it slowly. In the EU it is similar. I have little knowledge of the US however.

	13-09-2003 00:58									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue Without subsidies, it would die.

That's entirely possible. Or they'd adapt to new situations, possible by ceasing to let land lie fallow every third year and instead intensely overfarming.

	13-09-2003 00:58									#43
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Personally, I think something needs to be done in the Ag community both foreign and abroad. Yet to let a bunch of nut jobs, like the WTO, to decide this is just down right silly. I am also worried that they won't protect consumer interest and will cause more harm than good by letting 3rd world nations grow the food that will end up on MY table...

We moan about GM food, non-organic, organic, bla bla bla... How are we going to trust that these 3rd world countries aren't poisoning us or putting something in the food that can slip under the nose of the FDA? Heck, it's scary, IMO.

	13-09-2003 00:59									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Japher Personally, I think something needs to be done in the Ag community both foreign and abroad. Yet to let a bunch of nut jobs, like the WTO, to decide this is just down right silly. I am also worried that they won't protect consumer interest and will cause more harm than good by letting 3rd world nations grow the food that will end up on MY table... We moan about GM food, non-organic, organic, bla bla bla... How are we going to trust that these 3rd world countries aren't poisoning us or putting something in the food that can slip under the nose of the FDA? Heck, it's scary, IMO.

This is pretty much what I think.

	13-09-2003 01:00									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Per farmer doesn't matter since the average US farm is many times larger then the average Euro farm. The only satistic that matters is per unit because then you are comparing like with like.

"Doesn't matter" because you want to see the US as the lesser sinner. Subsidising relatively wealthier and larger farmers can be even more distorting. What matters even more is the structure of subsidies, namely income vs export.

	13-09-2003 01:03									#46
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Japher: You think they are trying to poison you, like purposefully? Man you have conspiracy issues Seriously, they might not conform to some health and safety standards. Personally, since much more is organic and does not use artificial fertilizers, I am all for it.

All they ask for is a free market. Why is that so hard to us to give it to them?

	13-09-2003 01:03									#47
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If we just get rid of those stupid subsidies we don't need to argue who is the worst sinner. Problem solved!

	13-09-2003 01:05									#48
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara That's entirely possible. Or they'd adapt to new situations, possible by ceasing to let land lie fallow every third year and instead intensely overfarming.

Possibly, however if the tariffs are removed, then the produce coming in will be so much cheaper even that may not be able to compete. Even if it does, it would have it's market share cut by a massive amount. Also, stopping the 3 year rotation will mean that crops won't do as well, IIRC. Also,w ith the subsidies now, why would they not do it if they couldn't? They have a guarenteed price (at least here). Also, it's our money wasted on these subsidies.

	13-09-2003 01:08									#49
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler "Doesn't matter" because you want to see the US as the lesser sinner. Subsidising relatively wealthier and larger farmers can be even more distorting. What matters even more is the structure of subsidies, namely income vs export.

He is right. If they have bigger farms, then a per farm subsidy is a useless statistic. Especially since subsidies are a set amount per unit IIRC. Also, I was not just refering to subsidies. We have a higher external tariff IIRC, and we dump far more. America consumes more of it's own produce, dumps less onto the third world. Our subsidies are also a higher % of the price IIRC.

Although Ingrid is correct. Both are bad sinners, let us stop it now.

	13-09-2003 01:08									#50
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quote: Japher: You think they are trying to poison you, like purposefully?

Uh, no. Use of banned pesticides, nuclear leakage (as in India), improper packaging, etc... Not on purpose, though it could happen.

quote: All they ask for is a free market. Why is that so hard to us to give it to them?

I think we should give them the "free" market, and I would like to see them compete. I said something needs to be done, didn't I? I just don't want to see consumer interest exploited for it. That is who they will be serving right?

quote: If we just get rid of those stupid subsidies we don't need to argue who is the worst sinner.

Eliminating subsides is a stupid idea, IMO. However, who they go to and why is absurd.

	13-09-2003 01:09									#51
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You are preaching to the convereted here, Drouge. I'm just pointing to flies in the ointment.

	13-09-2003 01:09									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue All false. There is long term growth in agriculture, espcially for the third world.

Of course there is. Let's just ignore deforestation of the Amazon basin, encroachment of sand from the Kalahari, Namib and other deserts into African farmlands, the hurricane belt in Central America, periodic droughts everywhere, soil depletion from overcropping, etc.

quote: There are more mouths to feed,

Cool, we can deplete soil even faster. And who subsidized feeding these people if they can't afford it? Or are they simply more farmers born to more farmers, so that over each generation, each one has progressively less and less land to work?

quote: and without state intervention, the first world agriculture would be dying (it is anyway, but slowly).

In some crops, yes. In others, no, because transport costs, crop loss in transit and storage issues also affect price.

quote: That means more agriculture needs to come from the third world. There is huge growth there, however without investment, and without intermediate technology and a market to export to (most importantly), it cannot grow.

Unless we do corporate farms in the third world which kills your "everybody a happy prosperous farmer tied for life to his 0.0000001 hectare of land" hypothesis, the economy of scale for family farms does not lend itself to investment (assuming you're not simply using the term as a euphemism for throwaway subsidy) or application of technology. Coops have their uses particularly for harvest and distribution to market, but coops in the reality of third world politics also lend themselves to abuse and exploitation.

quote: Agricultural produce is unstable, due to the nature of being a natural product, however there is much more money in it for the third world, as long as we stop our state intervention.

And the third world can't really recover from events of agricultural "instability" the way the developed world can, especially if they're forced to even greater dependence on agriculture.

quote: Remove the agricultural subsides and the free market will make developing nations wealthier. Allow them a small measure of unreplied protectionism, until they have developed a little further, and they will develop much quicker.

It will make some people (or governments) in some of the developing world wealthier some of the time. Of course the historical result is that the average campesino is the last and least to benefit, and you can't really seriously mean a "free market" because the guy with the least leverage in that market is the small farmer.

quote: However since that isn't good for the US and EU in the short-term, it is not politically viable. That is the problem.

In the short term, improving standards of living in the third world, the ability to repay debts, or not come begging for more, increased political stability from an intelligent system of domestic regulation, etc. are all in the short term and long term interests of both the US and EU. Perhaps the problem is that the anti-globalization advocates haven't been able to package and sell a viable plan that would accomplish those things.

	13-09-2003 01:12									#53
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I love it when MtG is around arguing... I always agree with him

	13-09-2003 01:16									#54
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara That's entirely possible. Or they'd adapt to new situations, possible by ceasing to let land lie fallow every third year and instead intensely overfarming.

Which is what a lot of third world farmers tend to do, especially after market failures or natural disasters have hurt them badly.

At least in the US, if a farm goes out of production due to overfarming, farmers can generally get the credit to chemically overprop up depleted soil and go to more marginal crops, a la most of the west side lower San Joaquin valley, or you can get off-farm jobs in an economy that is much larger in it's non-ag sectors than in it's ag sectors.

If you're in Botswana, you're just SOL.

	13-09-2003 01:21									#55
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In another thread Mtg said that one of the waste products of petroleum was fertilizer, bur petrol is running out, going back to compost will lower the yield of agrobuisness, helping the Thord World.

Food is not the only issue here. It took them 2 years to allow "compassionate" (inexpensive) sales of phamacuticals, the US is trying to force the EU to allow sales of genetically modifided foods.

The IMF&WTO have privatized 20% of Afriaca's water, the Ganjes, and othe rivers around the world. The poor that can afford it often pay 40% of their income for water and electricity. The poor who can't are liable to get cholera. Its the 21st century, clean water shouldn't be reserved for the rich!

Last edited by realpolitic on 13-09-2003 at 01:33

	13-09-2003 01:25									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue If they have bigger farms, then a per farm subsidy is a useless statistic. Especially since subsidies are a set amount per unit IIRC.

The subsidy system is a lot more complex, and varies between products.

As for farm size, it depends on how far you are from undistorted world market prices. If your subsidies per unit are lower, but push a larger volume of produce below market prices, you're pushing more competitors out of the market.

	13-09-2003 01:41									#57
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Mtg, I certainly agree with the comment that the poorer people are the higher their fertility rate. So by making them poorer, they'll just reproduce faster. I don't think that's what you want to accomplish.

	13-09-2003 01:45									#58
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quote: Originally posted by realpolitic Food is not the only issue here. It took them 2 years to allow "compassionate" (inexpensive) sales of phamacuticals, the US is trying to force GMOs on the poor as foriegn aid, and the privatization of water, around the would. The Multinationals control 20% of the water in Africa, and the poor that can afford it often pay 40% of their income for water and electricity. The poor who can't are liable to get cholera. Its the 21st century, clean water shouldn't be reserved for the rich!

You mean 20% of the piped water supplies in the cities, I assume. A lot of water acquistion in Africa is the good ol' fashioned "grab a jug from the river" sort of thing, or small independent community or farm wells.

It's also a bit hard to avoid cholera when you have a water regime where your drinking water is your neighbor's laundry water and your other neighbors water buffalo just took a **** in it.

Privatized water systems can work very well, but "privatization" doesn't mean you have to convey resource ownership or abandon any form of price oversight or regulatory process, so any time you have a major abuse, one would have to ask who was paid off, and how were they making their cut under the old system?

	13-09-2003 02:11									#59
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Well said Drogue!

	13-09-2003 02:20									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Chemical Ollie One less

DISCLAIMER: The following message is sick, heartless, and cruel, but it came into my head when I read Ollie's post so I'm just gonna say it.

Three billion third-world-peasants on a wall,
Three billion third-world-peasants,
You take one down...