13-09-2003 02:41									#61
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: we should force them to work for less pay and more brutal working conditions in corporate factories producing Nike's for 5 cents a pair when they are resold for $150 a pair in the US.

You do realize that Nike factories don't hurt for workers. The reason being because they pay HIGHER wages than what the workers would normally get working on the farms. That's the way factories get their worker, by having higher wages than most other jobs.

--

Anyway, ending farm subsidies in the US and EU is a good idea, but easier said than done. I have a feeling Hell may freeze over first.

	13-09-2003 02:56									#62
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui You do realize that Nike factories don't hurt for workers.

You do realize that Nike workers have repeatedly tried to unionize for better working conditions.

	13-09-2003 02:58									#63
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

How does that have any bearings on whether Nike hurts for workers or not?

	13-09-2003 03:05									#64
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui How does that have any bearings on whether Nike hurts workers or not?

	13-09-2003 04:18									#65
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat You mean 20% of the piped water supplies in the cities, I assume. A lot of water acquistion in Africa is the good ol' fashioned "grab a jug from the river" sort of thing, or small independent community or farm wells. It's also a bit hard to avoid cholera when you have a water regime where your drinking water is your neighbor's laundry water and your other neighbors water buffalo just took a **** in it. Privatized water systems can work very well, but "privatization" doesn't mean you have to convey resource ownership or abandon any form of price oversight or regulatory process, so any time you have a major abuse, one would have to ask who was paid off, and how were they making their cut under the old system?

When you can't afford the water, what choice do you have but "grab a jug".

The IMF does a great job of controlling resource managent, every Third World country they lend to ends up broke, as if by design, because if they didn't want it to happen so often, they would have modified the rules so some succeed. Then they take over this "incompetent" country's resources, as they are now doing in Africa, forcing governments to hand over fishing rights in their territorial waters.

	13-09-2003 04:24									#66
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by realpolitic When you can't afford the water, what choice do you have but "grab a jug".

You're missing the point. If the water isn't distributed or metered in the first place, then it doesn't matter if you can afford it or not, because carrying that jug from wherever the water is to wherever you need it is all the choice you have.

quote: The IMF does a great job of controlling resource managent, every Third World country they lend to ends up broke, as if by design, because if they didn't want it to happen so often, they would have modified the rules so some succeed. Then they take over this "incompetent" country's resources, as they are now doing in Africa, forcing governments to hand over fishing rights in their territorial waters.

And African (and third world in general) kleptothugocracy contributes at least as much to that problem as the IMF *******s. (I'm no particular fan of IMF)

	13-09-2003 07:30									#67
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

You guys are all missing the most important question brought up by this article: what the **** is wrong with Koreans? ****, cutting off your fingers when the Japanese PM visits Yasukuni Shrine is crazy enough, but stabbing yourself in the heart over agricultural policies is completely ****ing insane. What kind of culture pumps out morons like this?

On-topic, down with agricultural subsidies and tariffs. I'm sick of paying out the ass for rice just because Japanese farmers can't compete with the Thais.

	13-09-2003 10:08									#68
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I have a certain inner conflict going on with this whole deal. On the one hand I want to see US and EU subsidies and tariffs disappear so Australian produce can be competitive in their markets... and on the other hand I'd like to see Australian farmers drop kicked into the cities so they'll stop ****ing up what little there is of a major river basin in this country and so they'll stop the obscene levels of tree clearing in western Queensland.
Australia has a fragile enough ecosystem as it is.
So yeah... I don't mind buying European and American meat/wheat etc if it means the regeneration of rural Australia.
But yeah, undercutting 3rd world jobs and economies isn't something I'd like to see either, hence my my confusion.

	13-09-2003 11:01									#69
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Whatever the solution be, itd best be a slow one. Small scale Third world farming has been going on for hundreds of years. You can't expect to suddenly do what essentially amounts to firing the population.

In the US the turning point from small scale agriculture based to industrial based was during WWII, when labor demands and production demands got lots of workers off the farms and into factories or uniform.

Preceeding it was the Great Depression, a chain reaction which was caused in part by farmers not being paid enough due to oversupply. This oversupply began from farm subsidies started around the time of WWI

	13-09-2003 13:53									#70
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Dracon II I have a certain inner conflict going on with this whole deal. On the one hand I want to see US and EU subsidies and tariffs disappear so Australian produce can be competitive in their markets... and on the other hand I'd like to see Australian farmers drop kicked into the cities so they'll stop ****ing up what little there is of a major river basin in this country and so they'll stop the obscene levels of tree clearing in western Queensland.

We'd have to include rules against eco-dumping into WTO law to address that.

Btw, most damage by US and EU subsidies is not done to african subsistence farmers, but to export oriented farming. That's mostly specialised cultures for Africa, or things like Argentinian beef.

	13-09-2003 14:06									#71
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

so glad I didn't go to Cancun.

	13-09-2003 14:30									#72
	Remove this text

Lazy bastard.

	13-09-2003 18:12									#73
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

the thing is, that i would be happy to get rid of tariffs for 3rd world produce, as long as the food produced their came up to UK and EU safety and enviromental standards

	13-09-2003 18:20									#74
	Increase Your PM Length

the problem is that, historically, the northern industrialised countries had the benefit of centuries of protectionism with which to develop their economies independently. The third world, being (relatively recent) newcomers to the world economy don't have that benefit and had to enter fully unprotected because the northern states have changed the rules of the game post WW2

	13-09-2003 18:25									#75
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

that's hardly our problem though is it.

	13-09-2003 20:09									#76
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I'm always amused by the protests by flat earthers at WTO meetings.

The WTO and its predecessor the GATT (that's General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade for you kiddies) has probably done more to raise global living standards than any other international system over the last 50 years.

The main problem is only insiders understand its value.

	13-09-2003 21:18									#77
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

sub-saharan africa doesn't seem to be in a much better state than it was when the nthn industrialised states threw together GATT... and the "asian miracle" of Japan and S Korea was largely due to intensive state mobilisation and protection post WW2.
... but then, I'm drunk, only did a semester of economics and AH... it's a saturday night, you're australian, so hit the ****ing piss...

	13-09-2003 21:21									#78
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

and AH... the androids song you quote in your sig is shithouse... that lead singer should've stayed in the superjesus... NOW HIT THE PISS!!! PORT JUST BEAT ESSENDON>>> YEAH!!!!!!!!!!!!

	13-09-2003 23:01									#80
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat And African (and third world in general) kleptothugocracy contributes at least as much to that problem as the IMF *******s. (I'm no particular fan of IMF)

I'm glad you acknowledge the IMFs role in f******* things up. If more people were honest that America has done its share of dastardly deeds, we might be able to actually create a better world. As for which is worse, they both need to go, so quantifying the problem is not critical.

	13-09-2003 23:17									#81
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse I'm always amused by the protests by flat earthers at WTO meetings. The WTO and its predecessor the GATT (that's General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade for you kiddies) has probably done more to raise global living standards than any other international system over the last 50 years. The main problem is only insiders understand its value.

I've heard this before but never a convincing argument as to why.

Remember, China and Taiwan both only joined the WTO a couple of years ago, yet both had phenomenal growth in living standards for decades before.

I can see WTO/GATT raising living standards in consumer economies, where stuff becomes cheaper, but I don't see how it benefits those who produce the goods. Yes, if you have a product to sell you can sell it cheaper... but good luck developing an industrial base while you're barraged by cheap imports. Thus only low cost labor intensive industries develop.

	14-09-2003 00:00									#82
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

"Thus only low cost labor intensive industries develop."

When people say stuff like this it makes you not bother replying with a decent post..

	14-09-2003 00:19									#83
	Increase the size of your Attachments

This isn't a "EU and USA bullying all the little guys out of business."

This is a "large corporations put small farmers out of business." This happens all over the world, and even in the US and the EU.

You guys don't remember that whole, "Farm Aid," thing during the 80s?

	14-09-2003 00:21									#84
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I do. Despite the dire warnings about the Impending Fall of the Republic, we made it through the 80s small farm crisis OK.

	14-09-2003 00:22									#85
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Make me some tea, not war!

	14-09-2003 01:01									#86
	Support Apolyton

That's because by the 80s small farmers made up a very small percent of the US population. That is not the case in parts of the world right now.

	14-09-2003 01:05									#87
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Based on 1997 census results, Alabama had the highest percentage of family farms, at 91%, followed by the United States (86%) and the Southeast (79%). The Southeast, meanwhile, had the highest percentage of farms as corporations (11%), followed by the United States (4%), and Alabama (1%).

According to this Auburn study, family farmers still make up the bulk of US farmers:

http://www.ag.auburn.edu/aaes/commu...structural.html

	14-09-2003 01:08									#88
	Got spare money?

More from the study:

1) in the aggregate, the number of farms in the United States will probably continue to decline,

2) as the number of farms declines, more farm operators will seek employment outside farming

3) the family farm will continue to be the major production unit in U.S. agriculture.

okay so maybe it's premature to consider this as a big corporations vs. little guy thing.

However, it seems farmers all over the world continue to lose jobs.

	14-09-2003 01:08									#89
	Increase Your PM Length

They may still make up the bulk of US farmers.... but farmers make up very little of the US population.

I would rather see numbers on the absolute number of family farms pre and post 1980s

	14-09-2003 02:09									#90
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten stabbing yourself in the heart over agricultural policies is completely ****ing insane. What kind of culture pumps out morons like this?

It is insane in the developed world, but in the Third World, agroculture is the only way some people can survive. To sacrifice your life so others will live is heroic, whether it's the NYFD or someone protesting deadly policies.