14-09-2003 20:33									#121
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as for lee/yi: god, some koreans. for one thing, we love to protest: for a while there, every september was riot season. students and young people would gather together, chant about something or the other, and the riot police would gather opposite them. they'd get festive, shake hands, and toss rocks and tear gas.
then everybody would go home happy.

quote: You guys are all missing the most important question brought up by this article: what the **** is wrong with Koreans? ****, cutting off your fingers when the Japanese PM visits Yasukuni Shrine is crazy enough, but stabbing yourself in the heart over agricultural policies is completely ****ing insane. What kind of culture pumps out morons like this?

well, to the east, it's right next to a culture which put people on torpedoes and planes and used them as bombs; with people who thought that ripping out their own guts with a blade wasn't fatal enough, so had a second chop off their head just to make sure. not to mention that some of their political leaders think that gang rape is a sign of virility and condoned the mass murder and rape of their neighboring peoples.
nearby, you have darker-skinned people who bathe themselves in flammable liquids, and then light themselves afire to protest something, where some actually still engage in human sacrifice...
a third of the way around around the world, you have similar-skinned people blowing themselves and others up over a small bit of land. south of there, you have even darker-skinned people who use their children as soldiers and cut off the arms and hands, if not other things, of everyone who disagrees with them.
halfway around the world, you have people so focused on the sex lives of their political figures and celebrities, thinking that there is absolutely nothing their country can do wrong, thinking obsessed with eternal youth and keeping slim that they forget to age gracefully or live healthily.
so, drake, i realize you have this crazed love of japanese culture, but don't put down what korean culture because of it.

quote: It is insane in the developed world, but in the Third World, agroculture is the only way some people can survive. To sacrifice your life so others will live is heroic, whether it's the NYFD or someone protesting deadly policies.

skorea is first world. 13th largest economy, for one. a good deal of shipbuilding is made there, they have some cars, and a huge consumer electronics industry. samsung's korean, for instance. so's LG.

i say eliminate those damned farm subsidies. sure, america's fields may be the most productive in the world, but that money can be used for other things, like education, or infrastructure, or defence; and leading by example is better than leading by the point of a gun.

	14-09-2003 20:42									#122
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quote: with people who thought that ripping out their own guts with a blade wasn't fatal enough, so had a second chop off their head just to make sure

Come on, this one is just common sense. The stomach-slicing was required by ritual, but no one in their right mind wanted to actually slowly die in that kind of pain. The head chop put them out of their misery.

Took you long enough, BTW.

	14-09-2003 20:43									#123
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quote: so, drake, i realize you have this crazed love of japanese culture, but don't put down what korean culture because of it.

Didn't see this the first time through. Good stuff.

	14-09-2003 23:00									#124
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A higher standard of living is good, in certain circumstances. The developing world could use a raise in their standard of living. The developed world does not.

Why is that people in Japan tolerate a stagnant economic growth rate for over a decade? Many are perfectly satisfied with the standard of living they have.

World trade currently focuses on raising the standard of living of those who run it, with benefits to the rest being incidental side effects.

	15-09-2003 02:56									#125
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Horse manure is cheaper than synthethic fertilisers, and it doesn't kill the soil like these petrochem stuff does.

It's also very efficient at killing people by not feeding them. Although some radical environmentalists and radical conversatives (it's amazing how people in the extremes think alike) think this is nature's way of correcting overpopulation. I'm assuming you're not one of those nutsacks.

There are a wide variety of farming practices, high-tech no less, that doesn't need destructive chemicals to produe high yield crops.

Organic food a delusion of the hippies. Just like those useless new age theraputic treatments that do nothing and are bankrupting our healthcare system by their recent inclusion as "covered" medical expenses.

	15-09-2003 03:41									#126
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quote: If farm subsidies of rich countries were to cease, farmers in Third World Countries will quickly get a boost because suddenly there's market for their produce. All of a sudden, these Nike factories don't look so attractive anymore.

Then the factory jobs magically pay even more! I mean, really, it'll still be cheaper there than in the West.

	15-09-2003 06:04									#127
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quote: Originally posted by dexters I just think farmers have to realize at some point that their way of farming once replaced other ways. large scale labour intensive farming. Did they give a hoot about that change and the millions of farmhands they displaced? The real irony here of course is that those displaced farmhands likely went to the cities to work industrial jobs.

Another irony is the subsidies which once went to support small family farms now mostly go to large agribusiness conglomerates and high wealth individuals who have bought out most of the small holders.

There's a viscious cycle here - the handouts from the taxpayer are funnelled into political campaign donations. This is probably the biggest obstacle to agricultural trade reform.

	15-09-2003 06:23									#128
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quote: Why is that people in Japan tolerate a stagnant economic growth rate for over a decade? Many are perfectly satisfied with the standard of living they have.

They tolerate it because they don't want the social changes that will come with any necessary reforms, not because they are satisfied with their current standard of living. People will always want a higher standard of living, unless adverse consequences make progress undesirable.

	15-09-2003 06:29									#129
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The thing about Japanese rice tariffs is Japan actually imports large amounts of rice already under a tariff quota, and out of quota through various means.

The Japanese farmers would not go broke if the tariff was removed. There would be some rationalisation of the industry but there will always be a market in Japan for rice grown in Japan. In fact the Japanese rice growers could do better by marketing their rice as a premium home grown product instead of a staple food.

Rice is very similar to bread in that people who eat it all the time are very sensitive to taste, quality and freshness.

	15-09-2003 06:31									#130
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Thank god someone knows what they're talking about. Nice post, AH.

	15-09-2003 06:38									#131
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT I'm glad that more expensive food is on the agenda of the WTO protestors. It must do their hearts proud.

That must be one of the singlemost heartless and earthshatteringly f*cked up things that you have ever said...

And you call yourself a f*cking 'christian'...

Thankfully, it is probably borne out from a standard mindnumbingly ignorant viewpoint which seems to manifest itself so well from your neck of the woods - if you knew what you were actually saying, I am sure you would be the first to eat your words and apologise profusely for about half the world's population that you seem to be happy to keep in a state of poverty, malnutrition and death...

I saw an interesting programme about this today where it was mentioned as an example that my beloved EEC subsidise farmers about $2 a day per cow in protectionist policies designed to keep its farmers and population fat at the expense of 3rd world countries...

$2 a day is less than about half the population of the world gets to live on!

But then you wouldn't know about that living in your ivory tower of prosperity, would you?

Sick!

	15-09-2003 06:42									#132
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You know, MOBIUS, if you weren't so goddamned ignorant of the other posters on this board, myself included, I'd actually waste some of my time and energy getting upset at your ad hominems. But given that your accusations and insults to my supposed religion do not, in fact, apply to the person that you are trying so desparately to insult, I'll let you wallow in your ignorance.

	15-09-2003 06:42									#133
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JohnT: Can you post a picture of your baby?

	15-09-2003 06:43									#134
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT "... corporate and political bigwigs..." Make that "anybody."

You're just a sick twisted f*cker!

Well I'll be the last to care when something nasty befalls you...

	15-09-2003 06:44									#135
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MING!!!!

	15-09-2003 06:45									#136
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar JohnT: Can you post a picture of your baby?

Uh, sure...

	15-09-2003 06:51									#137
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler We'd have to include rules against eco-dumping into WTO law to address that. Btw, most damage by US and EU subsidies is not done to african subsistence farmers, but to export oriented farming. That's mostly specialised cultures for Africa, or things like Argentinian beef.

Are you certain about this? I don't have figures but it seems like 1st world subsidies on things like cotton or sugar are bound to effect each 3rd world producer when he goes to the local market to sell his crop.

	15-09-2003 06:51									#138
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She's very cute

	15-09-2003 06:53									#139
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT You know, MOBIUS, if you weren't so goddamned ignorant of the other posters on this board, myself included, I'd actually waste some of my time and energy getting upset at your ad hominems. But given that your accusations and insults to my supposed religion do not, in fact, apply to the person that you are trying so desparately to insult, I'll let you wallow in your ignorance.

Could be that I have you mixed up with another 'john' poster from a couple of years ago, not that the christian part of it is particularly relevant - call it morals or ethics. Whatever. You don't appear to have any of them, because it seems in your eyes you'd rather have a few extra nickels in your pocket at the expense of 3rd world families dying of disease and famine...

My supposed ignorance as to whether you have one iota of a moral fibre in your body pales into insignificance with that comparison...

	15-09-2003 06:56									#140
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did Mobius eat a bad prawn today or something?

	15-09-2003 07:00									#141
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I think it would be stupid to outright cancel agriculture subsidies in the EU, for non-economic reasons. It may apply to the US or not, I don't know.

However, reformation is clearly needed.

	15-09-2003 07:03									#142
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quote: Originally posted by MOBIUS You're just a sick twisted f*cker! Well I'll be the last to care when something nasty befalls you...

Given your complete lack of concern when I have posted about "nasty" things that have befallen me, I don't even know why the above statement merited being posted. After all, it is self-evident from your years posting here that you don't care about anyone that is not an ideological soulmate.

	15-09-2003 07:05									#143
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quote: Originally posted by MOBIUS Could be that I have you mixed up with another 'john' poster from a couple of years ago, not that the christian part of it is particularly relevant - call it morals or ethics. Whatever. You don't appear to have any of them, because it seems in your eyes you'd rather have a few extra nickels in your pocket at the expense of 3rd world families dying of disease and famine... My supposed ignorance as to whether you have one iota of a moral fibre in your body pales into insignificance with that comparison...

You pathetic, little, anger-driven posuer. What has the All-Caring, All-Loving MOBIUS done for the third world, other than whine on internet message boards and yell at London streetlamps? Please, show us the way to Love and Light!!!

	15-09-2003 07:06									#144
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COOL DOWN PEOPLE LEST MING COME AND DOUSE THIS THREAD

	15-09-2003 07:18									#145
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well the big issue you are going to have to face in Europe is the implications of EU enlargement for the CAP. German farmers number in the thousands. Poland, only one of several EU applicants, has several million farmers. Who is going to pay for their subsidies?

	15-09-2003 07:27									#146
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse well the big issue you are going to have to face in Europe is the implications of EU enlargement for the CAP. German farmers number in the thousands. Poland, only one of several EU applicants, has several million farmers. Who is going to pay for their subsidies?

This is why the CAP needs a thorough reform. Currently, we are rewarding high production at the financial loss of the EU government (CAP represents about 40-50% of all the costs paid by the EU).
With our current CAP, we basically give huge subsidies to our agro corporations, while we barely help our Mom and Pop farms. This goes completely against the international rules we contributed to set. Besides, it follows an old doctrine that has no validity today: that Europe can develop a productive agriculture without being dependent from abroad (and from the US in particular). This aim has been reached decades ago, but the CAP didn't change...

I think the new aim for the CAP should be about keeping some peasants around, to keep the way of live alive, and most importantly to avoid wildlife taking ownership on too much land. In a country like Poland, I think the CAP should make it possible that staying a farmer can be an option: the Poles will adapt sooner or later their agriculture to modern standards. And when it happens, they'll have a terrible exodus from the countryside to the cities. The CAP can help prevent the exodus to be too sudden and too overwhelming.

I'm sure we can get MUCH money from stopping subsiding our competitive agro-business.

	15-09-2003 07:30									#147
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Its your taxes....

	15-09-2003 07:47									#148
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I just wish the tariffs were not such a ceiling for NZ's economic growth. However efficiently, cheaply or innovatively products are made/grown here, exports and thus the entire economy depend more or less on the exchange rate, When the NZ dollar is lower than what it is really worth we do OK, as we start to be able to compete with the tariff-supported US, Euro and other products. When the dollar is anywhere near what it IS worth we can't compete because of enormous sums of money being given away to the farmers of the huge rich countries.

NZ is well-known for clean green agricultural exports, but farmers here don't do as well as they should, and EVERYONE is waiting for some reductions in tariffs. There are indications that Australia, which needs such reductions for exporting less than we do, may actually get them as a "thank you" for supporting Bush in the Iraq invasion. Whereas NZ, for supporting the UN that we helped found decades ago and for peacekeeping efforts in the Pacific and East Asia is told our contributions are unimportant. Man I hate that guy.

	15-09-2003 08:18									#149
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quote: There are indications that Australia, which needs such reductions for exporting less than we do, may actually get them as a "thank you" for supporting Bush in the Iraq invasion. Whereas NZ, for supporting the UN that we helped found decades ago and for peacekeeping efforts in the Pacific and East Asia is told our contributions are unimportant. Man I hate that guy.

That's what you get for supporting the UN. At least the Aussies were smart enough to figure out the wise course of action.

	15-09-2003 08:23									#150
	Re: Re: So all WTO protestors are rich, white people? Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat There are ignorant leftists everywhere to serve other people's agendas. Hippie gringos wouldn't go to Cancun to protest because the Mexican police would have their sorry asses, and the hippie gringos would rather party anyway.

Or maybe it's just that you like to stereotype an entire group of diverse people who happen to have a similar political/social ideology??