13-09-2003 00:44									#1
	Was Hemingway a racist? Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I'm about halfway through reading The Sun Also Rises (excellent book, btw), and suddenly Hemingway uses the n-word about 15 times (in a narrative voice) within a span of 2 pages. Now, I know the book was written in the '20s and the story takes place in the '20s, but it's hard to tell if the author is narrarating this way because it was common language his readers would understand back then, or because he talked that way himself, or because he wanted the characters to talk that way.

	13-09-2003 00:47									#2
	Re: Was Hemingway a racist? Remove this text

Probably.

	13-09-2003 00:49									#3
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Richard Wright used "nigger" a lot and no ones has ever asked that question!

I think he probably was, he lived in Idaho after all.

What does it matter, it's a good book, and that is how a lot of the world was before civil rights actually came into effect.

	13-09-2003 00:52									#4
	Re: Re: Was Hemingway a racist? Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Probably.

Agreed.

	13-09-2003 00:54									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Feephi [Is] the author is narrarating this way because it was common language his readers would understand back then, or because he talked that way himself, or because he wanted the characters to talk that way.

All of the above?

	13-09-2003 00:56									#6
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You also can't judge historical people's actions by modern standards. You must judging with in the context of the society in which they lived.

	13-09-2003 00:58									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin You also can't judge historical people's actions by modern standards.

sure I can...

quote: You must judging with in the context of the society in which they lived.

Does this mean Hitler wasn't as bad because the Japanese atrocities were more brutal?

	13-09-2003 01:01									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin You also can't judge historical people's actions by modern standards. You must judging with in the context of the society in which they lived.

No and Yes. We can judge the past according to our standards but we must allow for the different context. After all, it was someone in the past who said that future generations would look upon their failure to deal with slavery as a moral failing.

When we do stuff, we know that the future will judge us.

	13-09-2003 01:06									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Sava sure I can... Does this mean Hitler wasn't as bad because the Japanese atrocities were more brutal?

No, it means you judge people relative to the society in which they lived. In 1940's society the Germans and Japanese were both swines but Hemmingway was just an other using the common language.

	13-09-2003 01:07									#10
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As my Grammy used to say, "Back then we used ta call 'em niggamen."

Needless to say, I was very embarressed.

	13-09-2003 01:18									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin You also can't judge historical people's actions by modern standards. You must judging with in the context of the society in which they lived.

So if Hem's words don't make him a racist because they were written in the 1920's, thus preserving his credibility to us, how should we look back on civil rights supporters from that era in the same context - as eccentrics? Or as visionaries amongst "racists-who-didn't-know-any-better"?

	13-09-2003 01:22									#12
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He's an example of what I'm saying. Thomas Jefferson kept slaves and had sex with several of the female slaves yet in many ways he was liberal for his time. He taught black people to read, he allowed them to travel to nearby towns without asking if their work was done, he had a school & a church & decent houses (for slaves anyway) built for them, and he released them all upon his death. Compared to his peers he was actually very liberal while today we'd say he was a racist. Sure, he was a racist but compared to the society he lived in and came from he was actually very liberal.

	13-09-2003 01:23									#13
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I think we should look at each person as an individual and go from there.

I think if Hemingway was with us today he may be considered a racist as much as my great uncle is who still say Negro, say that today and you get looked at funny. Yet, Hemingway wasn't in the KKK AFAIK and he never killed a black man for sport... So, you decide. I don't think he would object to you taking either side of the debate as long as you took a side...

It's the same with Civil Rights activist. There have been good ones and bad ones...

Hemingway was the man

	13-09-2003 02:16									#14
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If Hemingway is racist, what do you make of his attitues toward the Spanish or Hispanics in The Sun Also Rises, For Whom the Bell Tolls, and The Old Man and the Sea?

	13-09-2003 02:23									#15
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It's the same question for Joseph Conrad who also uses the word in Heart of darkness.

	13-09-2003 03:08									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Adam Smith If Hemingway is racist, what do you make of his attitues toward the Spanish or Hispanics in The Sun Also Rises, For Whom the Bell Tolls, and The Old Man and the Sea?

One can have different attitudes about different "races." I'm not condemning the man, btw.

	13-09-2003 03:13									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi It's the same question for Joseph Conrad who also uses the word in Heart of darkness.

Which is total nonsense, IMO. The whole point of the story was to show how horribly white Europe treated blacks in Africa! To ban Conrad for being rascist is just incredibly stupid and just not thinking.

	13-09-2003 03:15									#18
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Did anyone say "ban?"

	13-09-2003 03:19									#19
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I did .

I'm sure you know that many school districts ban the 'Heart of Darkness' for racism.

	13-09-2003 03:54									#20
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I'm not saying Conrad is a racist. I'm saying many ask the same question asked here of Hemingway. To say that one is a racist, while the other is not requires a different standard than simply the use of pejorative words.

I agree, Conrad highlights the brutal treatment of blacks, but he also denigrates the Europeans, arguing that there is really no difference between the Europeans and the Africans.

	13-09-2003 03:58									#21
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quote: I'm not saying Conrad is a racist. I'm saying many ask the same question asked here of Hemingway.

Oh, I know. I was agreeing with you .

	13-09-2003 04:01									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi I agree, Conrad highlights the brutal treatment of blacks, but he also denigrates the Europeans, arguing that there is really no difference between the Europeans and the Africans.

How's that denigrating the Europeans?!

	13-09-2003 04:27									#23
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Read the book.

You'll find your answer.

Start with the statement 'white sepulchres.'

	13-09-2003 04:29									#24
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quote: How's that denigrating the Europeans?!

Showing people are utter *******s is a great way to denigrate them, IMO .

	13-09-2003 11:07									#25
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hey if black people can use the n word and not be deemed racist, I think white people should be able to use the n word and not be deemed racist

	13-09-2003 11:12									#26
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Forget the "n" word. Read Hemingways opinions about other races, as expressed directly in his work and/or derived from his depictions of non-white characters.

He was a racist -- and a misogynist, xenophobe, homophobe, and anti-Semite. He was also one hell of a writer. These things are not mutually exclusive.

	13-09-2003 11:19									#27
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Well said, Rufus. The world is complicated.
Although I think it is unlikely he was a homophobe. He was gay, or at least bi, after all.

	13-09-2003 11:57									#28
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thats the problem today. too many people are concerned about what people are rather than what they do. sure hemmingway was racist but he could write.

p.s. hunting black people for sport. what a mental image japher.

	18-09-2003 05:59									#29
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quote: Originally posted by LoneWolf Well said, Rufus. The world is complicated. Although I think it is unlikely he was a homophobe. He was gay, or at least bi, after all.

There has never been any proof that Hem was gay. Some critics have supposed a latent homosexuality because of the flamboyantly macho characters in his stories, but never any concrete proof that he was gay...

	18-09-2003 06:20									#30
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quote: Originally posted by MRT144 hunting black people for sport. what a mental image japher.

It happens even today.