15-09-2003 00:40									#1
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The conservatives continue to bash the ACLU, I don't quite see what the problem is.

the only problem I have is their defense of NAMBLA (north american man boy love association). How could they defend such scum?

I suppose they do have a little bit of a leftist slant. But the important thing is they are still defending civil liberties. Though I wish they could also defend more of the conservatives rights as well to be a little more fair.

	15-09-2003 00:51									#2
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I really admire what they do.

	15-09-2003 01:02									#3
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"I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
-- Voltaire

That sentiment is the very essence of what made the Enlightenment what it was, what makes the West what it is, and why the ACLU is essential even when we disagree with them.

	15-09-2003 01:12									#4
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The ACLU has an agenda which they push through the courts. Some local chapters though are not too bad.

	15-09-2003 01:37									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident the only problem I have is their defense of NAMBLA (north american man boy love association). How could they defend such scum?

It's called 'free speech'. They defend the right of NAMBLA to state their opinion - not some (non-existant) "right" to **** little kids.

	15-09-2003 01:39									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln The ACLU has an agenda which they push through the courts. Some local chapters though are not too bad.

Yeah, the agenda to allow everyone to express their own agenda.

	15-09-2003 01:48									#7
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the NAMBLA webite provides instructions on how to rape little kids. You agree with that?

	15-09-2003 01:53									#8
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In dedication to the ACLU:
"The Blowhard Always Wins"
By Elok

How many roads must a man walk down,
before he gets tired of sore feet?
Why must he stay in the kitchen so long,
if he always complains of the heat?
How can he talk in mixed-metaphor whine,
without getting thrown out on the street?
The answer? My friend, I'll yell it in your ear:
IT'S HARDER TO WORK THAN TO *****.

	15-09-2003 02:03									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident the NAMBLA webite provides instructions on how to rape little kids. You agree with that?

That's ****ed up

I am afraid to even go to their website or do a search on the organization.

	15-09-2003 02:44									#10
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I voted for:

"They do some questionable things- but I still support them"

Overall, they are ok, but some stuff they do is just moronic.

	15-09-2003 02:49									#11
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I agree with Imran.

	15-09-2003 03:02									#12
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Yup, that's how I voted (I agree, but...) as well.

	15-09-2003 03:23									#13
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I hate 'em!

The feel that protecting freedoms means taking them away and locking them a safe box where no one can hace them is "protecting"...

	15-09-2003 03:52									#14
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I support the ACLU in principle, if not always in substance.

	15-09-2003 03:55									#15
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I wish they'd try to support the constitution more then just left wing political adgendas.

	15-09-2003 05:55									#16
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The ACLU is A-OK with me.

But yea, it has a decidedly leftist taint to it. Which is unfortunate, but there is growing support for change within the organization. I was at their Inaugral Membership Conference this June, it was excellent. In this age of the Patriot Act and other such crap we need the ACLU more than ever.

At one of the awards banquets (I got to see Muhammed Ali get an award) I had an interesting gun rights discussion with some ACLU Board Members. One told me that she felt the ACLU's position is totally inconsistant on the 2nd Amendment. She believes, rightly I might add, that since there is such an active and powerful gun lobby already the ACLU shouldn't devote any of its resources to work on this issue. However we both think it should at least acknowledge there is a thing called the 2nd Amendment, even if they don't work on it.

While this is a promising sign, another board member at the table had a long drawn out discussion with me (and this other guy) over dinner. He was passionately anti-gun. I was not on my debating toes, cause I let him drag us through this whole long discussion on the nature of rights and their orgin and stuff. Which is irrelevant actually, he obviously supports 1st amendment "rights" so he can't attack the 2nd amendment by challenging the basis of rights.

But I digress. There is certainly a very powerful old liberal guard in the ACLU that don't want change. I was greatly encouraged by the very strong, and very large youth contigent at the conference. Many of which were embracing the hiring of Congressman Barr and other overtures to conservatives by the organization.

Not to say change is eminent. The top ACLU brass would make some interesting statements "These evil conservatives are out to imprision every one of us, and now that Republicans control all 3 branches of government they will be unstoppable in squashing our civil liberties. Only the totally, and completely non-partisan ACLU can stop these Bible thumping Republican zealots." Paraphrased of course.

Even though I don't agree with everything the ACLU does, they are an admirable organization that deserves everyone's support.

Sign up today!

	15-09-2003 07:17									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui I voted for: "They do some questionable things- but I still support them" Overall, they are ok, but some stuff they do is just moronic.

We have to stop agreeing with each other.

	15-09-2003 08:00									#18
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Defense of free speech is almost always awesome, but when they get into the quis custodiet ipsos custodes type logic, I hate them.

	15-09-2003 08:08									#19
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But I do wonder if there are a lot of conservatives that have this automatic-knee-jerk reaction towards all organizations that have any inkling of a liberal ideology, as being "incompetent, corrupt, or useless?"

	15-09-2003 10:02									#20
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I find the opposite is more true. Liberals haven't a knee-jerk reaction to anything conservative, as being evil and lying .

	15-09-2003 10:12									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin I wish they'd try to support the constitution more then just left wing political adgendas.

What left wing agenda? Give an example. Those of us on the left often find ourselves opposed to the ACLU. For instance - the ACLU is opposed to campaign finance reform. The ACLU also defended that moron in FL who wanted to wear a veil in her driver's license photo - sticking up for the rights of right wing religious zealots.

Sure, the ACLU is pro-choice but given that libertarians are pro-choice, pro-choice is not a left-wing issue.

	15-09-2003 10:14									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui I find the opposite is more true. Liberals haven't a knee-jerk reaction to anything conservative, as being evil and lying .

Yeah, yeah. It's not the left calling all conservatives traitors ...

	15-09-2003 10:22									#23
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quote: It's not the left calling all conservatives traitors

Actually, they are... but in a different way (if you don't think the left believes Ashcroft [and by extention every Republican] is a traitor to the American ideal, then you aren't paying attention ).

I'm reminded of the way the Democrats treated the Estrada confirmation. Not even a right-wing ideologe, but since he's Bush's boy, they had to deep six it. Just mere close association to Bush means he is 'evil'.

	15-09-2003 10:34									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: It's not the left calling all conservatives traitors Actually, they are... but in a different way (if you don't think the left believes Ashcroft [and by extention every Republican] is a traitor to the American ideal, then you aren't paying attention ).

But Ashcroft is a traitor ... (and even many prominent Republicans like Bob Barr and Grover Norquist have said as much).

	15-09-2003 13:17									#25
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quote: Originally posted by The Templar What left wing agenda? Give an example. Those of us on the left often find ourselves opposed to the ACLU. For instance - the ACLU is opposed to campaign finance reform. The ACLU also defended that moron in FL who wanted to wear a veil in her driver's license photo - sticking up for the rights of right wing religious zealots. Sure, the ACLU is pro-choice but given that libertarians are pro-choice, pro-choice is not a left-wing issue.

complete lack of understanding of right wing zealots here.

Only christians are right wing zealots. Do you really think muslims are conservatives

	15-09-2003 16:33									#26
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If you define conservative as "christian," then obviously the answer is going to be no. Otherwise, you could argue that point.

	15-09-2003 17:18									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui I find the opposite is more true. Liberals haven't a knee-jerk reaction to anything conservative, as being evil and lying .

Well duh -- conservatives ARE evil incarnate, you know.


(joking)

	15-09-2003 17:26									#28
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But Conservatives are evil incarnate, whenever I feel the need to be evil and destructive I always think about helping the conservative cause...

	15-09-2003 21:12									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui I'm reminded of the way the Democrats treated the Estrada confirmation. Not even a right-wing ideologe, but since he's Bush's boy, they had to deep six it. Just mere close association to Bush means he is 'evil'.

98% of his judges have been confirmed. So the Dem's aren't rubber-stamping all of Bush's nominees. Big whoop. 3 out of 150+. Compared with the 54 (or 59) judges Clinton wanted that the Reps wouldn't even bring to the floor.

	15-09-2003 21:19									#30
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The Dems have mostly let Bush's judges sail through and have only stopped with worst offenders.