18-09-2003 11:41									#31
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I can be placed anywhere in the turn order. My hours online are varied. But for reference, I am GMT -8.

I don't like the "hidden" UU idea too much, but the "secret" one is cool.

My email is bigfree1@comcast.net (Spam does not scare me!)

	18-09-2003 11:42									#32
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Sorry... had to go real quick there (and I can't edit posts while at work).

Well... what we use as hidden units (if any) doesn't really matter to me (as long as a hidden unit is not also someones UU). My main concern is the issue of keeping civ traits/UU/start techs secrete. There are 8 players in this game and only three have sounded off about it (Donegeal, GhengisFarb and BigFree) and they were all in favor. If this passes, then sure Anatolia, you can send me your info... We would also have to find someone to set the game up (unless you would still want me to do it).

Hmmm... this process is getting boring... anyone for defering their votes to me so we can get this game going (and I can kill everyone?)?

	18-09-2003 11:46									#33
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Since I was too late to join, I'll gladly help set up the game if you guys want.

	18-09-2003 12:30									#34
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I would advise to let the game flow strongly east-to-west. I am GMT+1 (GMT+2 with DST).

We could add some more fun to the game, if we all choose phantasy names, i.e. not the boring Aztecs, Chinese, Japanese, Bolognese etc., but such like Empire of Grilrit, Fellowship of Mu, The Dark Order, Fighters of the Light, Tumbernut Clan and alike. Also, it should be allowed to rename the UU.

Speaking of UUs free to choose, we're talking about standard UUs, right? Not UUs with imbalancing phantasy stats, like a 10.10.2 horseman and alike. Just to be sure. What if two players choose the same UU?

	18-09-2003 14:43									#35
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Yes, standard UUs. Rename them as much as you want. In PTW, you can do that at your will. If your just lazy ( ), then I guess it could be done. It would not work to conceal the type of unit becase the unit type would just show up on the "see cilopedia entry for *****" on the bottem of the screen when you click on it.

SR, my civ is going to be the "Felcorian Empire" with city names and GLs based on my long dead RPG characters. This reminds me, when you make your civ, make sure to pick what culture type of cities you want.

The problem of two people picking the same UU is one I have been trying to get answered. I have no problem if two players pick the same UU, but others might. So if you want your UU to be truly unique (only one civ can build no matter what) then say so. If this was put to a vote, I'd abstain.

	18-09-2003 14:44									#36
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I'm on GMT so I guess I'll be after SR. Secret UU sounds very cool. Not too keen on hidden nationality units as it can have a major influence on the game. Having someone pilliage all your improvements and steal your workers sucks. Perhaps expensive bowmen and war elephants?

Secret starting techs sounds interesting. Taking alpha may not be such a good idea if everyone else has it too.

Secret traits is a very nice idea. I already have an idea who I'm going to be but I'll wait for the map settings to be sure.

Other than this I defer my vote on anything to Don.

	18-09-2003 14:49									#37
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One thing I forgot, what do you guys think to standardising start locations. I mean having the map edited to have all nations start with equal bonus resources in the first 21. Equal excess food is the most important IMO a cow or wheat on GL is like starting with a granary compared to someone who only has GL.

	18-09-2003 15:09									#38
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I don't have a problem with the freely chosen UU being not really 'unique'. And the idea to rename the units manually is fine with me too. I'm still undecided about my civ. I'm Britannia (from the Ultima series) in the Naval game and certainly won't repeat this here. I will think a bit more, but I'm sure I can meet a decision really quick.

What will we do with the starting techs having different values? I mean the span is from 2 to 5, so if one chooses Alphabet(5) and Masonry(4) (like France and Carthage), he certainly has an advantage over somebody with Pottery(2) and Ceremonial Burial(2). Should we level them at 3?

As for hidden nationality units: What about standardizing them and taking one per age? What about the Archer, the Longbowman and the Guerilla? And should we change the barbarian footsoldiers to Archers too?

	18-09-2003 18:25									#39
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Hidden units: I REALLY like the idea. But like I stated much earlier in this thread, they can easily and quickly become way too powerful if used correctly. I suggested earlier that we make them cost double (or more) what they cost now so they stay as a distraction and a tool rather than becoming the Army. I also like the one per deal (like I was saying in my cut-off post back a few), and I like the idea of using the babylon Bowmen as OPD suggested better than the Numedian Merc as an acient age HU (hidden nationality unit). ....

... was just on the toliet and had an idea (I wonder how many ideas people come to while sitting on the toliet?). I like SR idea of standardizing HUs (one per age) and making them upgrade into each other, but I don't think taking a very common unit (the archer) and making him a HU is a good idea. How about we set up a separate upgrade path of HUs? For instance: Jag Warriors --> War Elephants --> Cossack (minus the resourse requirements). We jack the shield costs of these units up, remove any resouse requirements (only needed with the Cossack in my example), and make them their own upgrade path. Everyone will be able to build them and they almost make a logical upgrade path (each no resourses and two move. Ok, the cossack moves three, but you get my picture).
I currently like the way the Guerilla unit works as an alternative good unit to resourse poor civs.

Equalizing the starting positions: I usually prefer a completely random start, but as it looks like we are going to keep all our civ traits/UU/starting techs secrete, we are going to need to have someone outside the game set it up (as MZ has already volunteered for this, does anyone object to him?) and we could very easily ask him to do this. But, to me, this is another issue that I would "abstain" on.

Level the starting techs: Hmmmm..... this is probably a good idea. I would vote yes to this.

Barb Archers? Hmm... I would have no problem with barb archers that come out from a camp, but imagine poping that hut next to your capital early in the game and finding yourself surrounded by three archers. Not good.

	18-09-2003 19:03									#40
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Fast units as HUs are probably better apt for hit-and-run attacks than my suggestions. What about donegeals suggested units with costs increased by about 50%?

- Jaguar Warrior, 1.1.2/20 shields
- War Elephant, 4.3.2/100 shields
- Cossack, 6.4.3/130 shields

None of them need resources, and they upgrade each into other. Also, nobody shall use them as his UU. Acceptable?

As for equalizing start positions: Generally yes, but pretty pretty pretty please don't mess too much with the resources. I once played in a game where the starting locations were doctored ("equalized"), and I had 4 different luxuries, 3 horses and 3 iron within 8 or 10 tiles from my capital. That's just a ridiculous abundance and made the game much less fun.

Archers as barbarians: I don't insist, but if we choose Regent, barbarians will just be too easy to fight against.

	18-09-2003 19:24									#41
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Yes, I think I like the HUs that way. They are pretty good at being sufficently expensive as to discourage making them the mainstay in a military, yet not so outrageously expensive as to make them obsolete. What would you think of making the Jag cost 30, but each team starts with one?

	18-09-2003 19:26									#42
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quote: Originally posted by donegeal What would you think of making the Jag cost 30, but each team starts with one?

Good idea.

	18-09-2003 20:01									#43
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Ok, so here is what we have so far:
Map-
Size: Standard
Climate:
1 Wet (GF)
1 Normal (SR)
2 Random (Donegeal, OPD (deffered to me))
All others:
2 Random (Don, OPD)

Difficulty:
2 Monarch (Don, OPD)

HUs:
Jag (30 shield)
War Elephants (100 shield)
Cossack (130 shield, no resourses)

Starting units (this has been put out by me, but nobody argued it):
3 Settlers
3 Workers
1 Jag Warrior
1 Scout (if expansion trait choosen)

Leveled starting techs:
3 All starting techs set to value 3 (SR, Don, OPD)

"equalized" starting position:
2 yes (SR, OPD)
1 Abstain (Don)

Civ traits/UU/start tech:
5 Known only by the civ and the set up man (Don, OPD, SR, GF, BF)

Civ Color:
Don: Purple-Blue (secondary Korea color)
GF:
SR: Black (GoW Black.....hehehehe)
NYE:
OPD:
Anatolia:
BF:
Beta:

Civ Names:
Don: Felcorian Empire
GF:
SR: Order of the black Rose
NYE:
OPD:
Anatolia:
BF:
Beta:

Play order:
Anatolia (GMT +9)
SR (GMT +2)
Don (GMT -6, but works thirds and will play in times similar to SR)
OPD (GMT)
Beta, GF, NYE (unknown, I think GF is GMT -6)
BF (GMT -8)

We can start in this order in anyway, so long as the game will follow the sun (except for that goofy Don character who keeps f*****g this up).

Set up man:
2 Master Zen (Don, OPD)

Colors to be given on a first come first served basis!!!!

Last edited by Donegeal on 18-09-2003 at 20:21

	18-09-2003 20:15									#44
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I will be The "Order of the Black Rose"

Set up data:

Civilization: Order of the Black Rose (if it's too long, "The Black Rose" will do)
Noun: Black Monks
Adjective: Black Rose (that should do it)

Title: Grandmaster
Name: Grax

Leaderhead: Brennus (Celts)

Culture Group: European
Color: Black

Traits, starting techs and UU will be reported later.

	18-09-2003 20:27									#45
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Oooo... leaderhead.... good one. I forgot that....

Hannibal (Carthage)

	18-09-2003 20:35									#46
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Civilization: Ghengland
Noun: Ghenglish
Adjective: Ghenglish
Title: King
Name: Gheorge

Leaderhead: Bismark (Germans)

Culture Group: European
Color: German Blue

	18-09-2003 20:36									#47
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I sense another BRADENBURG coming.

	18-09-2003 20:42									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph I sense another BRADENBURG coming.

Naw, their gonna being English themed this time.

Names like Lundon and Wenchester. Did I spell those correctly?

	18-09-2003 20:44									#49
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Btw, what about giving the Guerilla a 2 movement and adding it as fourth HU? May be we make it 6.6.2/140 shields (cheap upgrade from Cossack). That would give this unit actually a purpose.

	18-09-2003 20:47									#50
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quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb Names like Lundon and Wenchester. Did I spell those correctly?

Ask an Englishman about this, not a Kraut barbarian and coming dark grandmaster like me.

	18-09-2003 20:51									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph Btw, what about giving the Guerilla a 2 movement and adding it as fourth HU? May be we make it 6.6.2/140 shields (cheap upgrade from Cossack). That would give this unit actually a purpose.

I could go for that. I was thinking about it, but I wasn't sure if people would go for modding to the point of adding movement points. And I still get worried about these units getting used as a main weapon instead of a diversion. How 'bout we make it 150 shields (like 10 shields is going to matter at that point anyway...)

	18-09-2003 20:52									#52
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Thing is Americans think anything German is cool. German beer, German engineering, Germans. France, not so much....................

I have no problem with adding Gorillas to the hidden nationality chain as long as their stats are an improvement over the Cossack.

	18-09-2003 20:56									#53
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I think it should not entirely replace the Cossack, but accompany it. May be we make it even not upgradable. It has 1 less movement, but 2 more defense, which could prove to be useful.

	18-09-2003 20:58									#54
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Cossack: 6/4/3 130 shields
Guerilla: 6/6/2 150 shields

... and the Guerilla is a much cooler graphic!

One downside. All other Cav units don't upgrade at all...

[edit]

....must sleep....

	18-09-2003 21:19									#55
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Ummmm... no upgrade Cossack --> Guerilla, I think. Let us build them both.

	19-09-2003 01:07									#56
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I like all of Don's ideas except the one where he says he kills everyone. I also like the idea of having MZ adjust the starting positions and/or resources to equalize things. Start position counts for so much in a game. What about choosing three traits? There will likely be some teams with same exact traits if we only choose two. We all will likely pick industrious....you get the picture.

Here's my specifics:
Civilization: Freemerica
Noun: Freemerican
Adjective: Freemerican
Title: A-1
Name: BigFree
Leaderhead: Cearsar (Romans)

Culture Group: America's
Color: Red

	19-09-2003 01:51									#57
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Noun should be Freemericans, or do I get that wrong?

	19-09-2003 01:54									#58
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I like your sig, BigFree.

	19-09-2003 01:55									#59
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I don't know about descriptions yet, I'll have to think of something.

I'll take Babylonian Leaderhead and blue colour.

I was going to be expansionist but 3 stlrs at the start and a jag will make it less effective,

	19-09-2003 05:07									#60
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I vote for secret start techs but I think two is enough. I won't complain about 3, though The Hidden nationality units are fine the way they've been proposed but I think the barbarians should be more powerful with more hit points or by making them immortals or something.
I don't agree with equalised starting positions. It's great to have a good start but there's a greater feeling of challenge when you start the game in a less-than-perfect position.

Map: Completely random
Civ Name: Gojoseon
Noun: Han
Adjective: Han
Title: King
Civ colour: Indian purple
Culture: East Asian (or whatever it's called in the game)
Leaderhead: Korea (Wangkeon)

Having Master Zen set up the game is fine.