14-10-2003 11:38									#451
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quote: Originally posted by Havak There’s a familiar tune playing here – “Let’s bash England”

You're on to it mate!

quote: Really? Because I saw NZ and thought they were fairly good. But should I say “it’s only Italy for Fark’s sake”.

And you'd be right. NZ should have won by more - we made too many handling errors (I think the team may have been a little.. over excited..) and we lacked structure and execution at times. Things got better as the game progressed, and there is no doubt we can and will get better throughout the pool games. And I think so will England.

quote: Lardy Thompson by the way was one of the few consistently punching holes through those huge forwards – I reckon you just don’t like him.

The ball bounced off him too many times, but fair call, he did manage to also get a few Georgians bouncing off his beer pot.

quote: Wow – you really have got this one staggeringly wrong. Of the two England looked far the stronger – although some of what France were doing later in the second half was quite nice.

But France played Fiji, a team that contains much more skill than Georgia. I thought France did really well actually – Fiji made use of, and got their points via their very quick wingers. France did well to batter the pack into submission and not to loose composure after that bout of agro, which they’ve been inclined to do in the past. Their two centres had a fantastic game (Tony Marsh being a kiwi I hasten to add.. )

	14-10-2003 11:50									#452
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quote: Originally posted by finbar Ma'a Nonu is his name. Very talented. Sort of a pocket-sized version of Umaga. He's Umaga's centre partner in S12. You can imagine the rampages they go on together. They just about carried the Hurricanes into the S12 semi-finals this season.

Anyone seen that Arnie movie, Predator? I swear Nonu is really one of those alien things - certainly he's as powerful. I'd like to see him in there with Carter and Mils. Mauger is still injured - he didn't train with the ABs yesterday - and whether he'll be okay by the time quarters/semis come around is the big question. Either way, Carter provides a very good option in the 12 jersey - probably more potent on attack than Mauger, but maybe not quite the stabilising influence. He could also take the pressure of kicking off Spencer.

Tana is not only the defensive master of that backline but the leader. His organisation and communication will be missed.

	14-10-2003 12:05									#453
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quote: Originally posted by kiwiman Greetings from Kiwiman in Melbourne. Finbar kindly informed me about this enlightened forum. News this morning is that Umaga is out with his knee for the tournament and that Caucau got 2 match suspension.

Welcome Kiwiman! By all means feel free to join in the fun of jamming it up the Pom. He's a bitter drinker, so if you ever find this place smelling of rotten old farts, you know he's about!

	14-10-2003 13:11									#454
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quote: There was a lot of action in the England 22. Every single kick-off Georgia put it there. Every. Single. Time.

There was still no action there – if they made tackles in the 22 twice I’d be surprised. Those restarts came back at them at speed.

quote: Oh and I wasn't going to mention those decoy runners of yours but now that you've brought it up ...

Seemed to be Greenwoods main function to be honest – so why Clive is criticising the Aussies (who certainly do it as well) I do not know.

I’ll say hello to Kiwiman here also – it may be the last pleasant words we exchange before standard Pommy bashing commences?

quote: He knew that. I invited him to shore up the defences against the NH barbarian hordes.

Interesting analogy. Tamerlin rebuttal was fairly good but I’ll expand on it - we in the NH are the ‘Romans’ who gave the game to the world – and you lot are the ‘scruffy oiks’ that came and sacked our capital. But just like the tribes your superior strength has faded over time. Wow that stretched the analogy?

quote: I am not sure the future opponents of the All Blacks are earning a benefit from this replacement.

The Kiwi’s rate Ma'a Nonu highly. After Umaga most of them make him the best centre in the world no doubt? But then Kiwi’s rate everyone in the black shirt ‘best in position’ generally, and certainly when we are looking at back lines.

quote: You're on to it mate!

Seeing the hook never stops a fish biting it.

quote: Things got better as the game progressed, and there is no doubt we can and will get better throughout the pool games. And I think so will England.

I have no doubt you are right on both counts. I look forward to your last pool game – Wales are finally playing some rugby but I feel by then you may be somewhat too sharp for them – 53-3 in the summer wasn’t it?

quote: The ball bounced off him too many times, but fair call, he did manage to also get a few Georgians bouncing off his beer pot.

The Georgians caught the team off guard – they were expecting a tight game up front so they could be playing an expansive game – what they got was free reign in the middle and defence out wide. Not good defence sure, but energetic and it necessarily altered the game plan I think. Plus the conditions were like Wales in October rather than Australia. Not really an excuse though – we are quite used to that.

I thought Italy fronted up quite well – but they clearly lacked the firepower necessary to trouble the ABs.

You need to forget the opponents to a certain extent and look at how teams performed – that old SH favourite of patterns and structure. The Boks hammered Uruguay but there was no structure to their game and they worked everything through the forwards – the backs hardly got a look in. As a work out for next week how useful was that? At least we had ambition.

I never said by the way France were not good – but I found England far more consistent – we controlled the game to a much greater extent. Your point about comparative opponents is duly noted as a qualifier. Georgia may pull off a shock though – Uruguay and Samoa will not find them easy I think.

Bitter = nectar of the gods. Pure and simple.

	14-10-2003 14:53									#455
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quote: Originally posted by Andydog (Tony Marsh being a kiwi I hasten to add.. )

Tony Marsh is as French as Rokococo is New Zealander...

	14-10-2003 14:54									#456
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quote: Originally posted by Havak You need to forget the opponents to a certain extent and look at how teams performed – that old SH favourite of patterns and structure. The Boks hammered Uruguay but there was no structure to their game and they worked everything through the forwards – the backs hardly got a look in. As a work out for next week how useful was that? At least we had ambition.

True enough but trying to draw generalizations about future matches against tougher opposition based on past matches against lesser opposition is a pretty large leap. Necessity being the parental of invention and all ...
I doubt too many reliable hints can be taken this early.

quote: Bitter = nectar of the gods. Pure and simple.

"Only the 'gods' of Evil Darth. Only the 'gods' of evil."

	14-10-2003 14:55									#457
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin Tony Marsh is as French as Rokococo is New Zealander...

Bonjour Monsieur Marsh!

	14-10-2003 15:13									#458
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Bitter = nectar of the gods. Pure and simple.

I thought it was Ambrosia...

	14-10-2003 15:35									#459
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quote: I doubt too many reliable hints can be taken this early.

True enough - which is why I'm not worried about anything too much yet. Now if we lose Saturday (god forbid) then I'll start worrying - and praying for a Welsh miracle.

So Tony Marsh isn't native born French? Quelle Surprise!

Bitter does not belong to the dark side.

Lager does.

	14-10-2003 15:39									#460
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quote: Originally posted by ravagon Bonjour Monsieur Marsh!

About New Zealand I have been impressed by the mechanical aspects of their game. Every player knows where he must stand and what he must do at all time to the point they are no more thinking about it. Though it is a great strength I think this is also their main weakness as they could lack the ability to react as a team and adapt their game to win against an opponent that is challenging them on an individual basis.

IMO, the Game of Rugby played by the All Blacks (you know, this Rugby League pudding played with 15 players) relies too much on the individual qualities of the players and their ability to win the duels. Their beautiful organization could well fall apart against a team that is challenging them on this ground.

	14-10-2003 16:07									#461
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Rugby League Pudding? Tamerlin you do crack me up!

Looks like the Australia-Namibia game might set new records when it happens - what little I have seen they have been awful.

	14-10-2003 17:48									#462
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quote: Originally posted by Andydog Tana is not only the defensive master of that backline but the leader. His organisation and communication will be missed.

Good point. So you'd want Mauger back pretty quickly.

	14-10-2003 17:57									#463
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Interesting analogy. Tamerlin rebuttal was fairly good but I’ll expand on it - we in the NH are the ‘Romans’ who gave the game to the world – and you lot are the ‘scruffy oiks’ that came and sacked our capital. But just like the tribes your superior strength has faded over time. Wow that stretched the analogy?

A tad more e-l-a-s-t-i-i-i-i-i-c than your usual efforts.

quote: The Kiwi’s rate Ma'a Nonu highly. After Umaga most of them make him the best centre in the world no doubt? But then Kiwi’s rate everyone in the black shirt ‘best in position’ generally, and certainly when we are looking at back lines.

They do rate him. He was terrifying in S12 paired with Umaga. I don't know whether he'll make the step up, but he certainly won't die wondering.

	14-10-2003 17:59									#464
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin About New Zealand I have been impressed by the mechanical aspects of their game. Every player knows where he must stand and what he must do at all time to the point they are no more thinking about it. Though it is a great strength I think this is also their main weakness as they could lack the ability to react as a team and adapt their game to win against an opponent that is challenging them on an individual basis.

Precisely what happened to them against the Boks in the return Tri Nations match.

	14-10-2003 18:05									#465
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Rugby League Pudding? Tamerlin you do crack me up!

It's a line he's used many times before! It doesn't get any funnier with the telling! Jacques Tati just somersaults once more in his grave!

quote: Looks like the Australia-Namibia game might set new records when it happens - what little I have seen they have been awful.

I assume you took today off work to watch Argentina -v- Namibia? I was feeling particularly perverse tonight, so I insisted Mrs finbar watch it with me. Gee, the Pumas have left their A game back on the Pampas.

	14-10-2003 18:19									#466
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quote: Originally posted by Havak The Kiwi’s rate Ma'a Nonu highly. After Umaga most of them make him the best centre in the world no doubt? But then Kiwi’s rate everyone in the black shirt ‘best in position’ generally, and certainly when we are looking at back lines.

blah blah blah you'd do better to dangle a hook baited with a piece of old shoe leather. Just listen to the poms blather on about Wilko and Johno being the 'best that's ever been' ya de ya de ya.

quote: I have no doubt you are right on both counts. I look forward to your last pool game – Wales are finally playing some rugby but I feel by then you may be somewhat too sharp for them – 53-3 in the summer wasn’t it?

It was 55-3. And the team named for this weeks clash against Canada is not too different from the team that faced Wales then. Mitchell has retained just 6 of the players that started against Italy last weekend. Daniel Carter gets another go at 2nd 5 and the Predator another go at Centre, Muliaina and Caleb Ralph are the wingers with MacDonald playing fullback. Hoeft, Hammett and Meeuws form the front row, and Chris Jack, Brad Thorn, Reuben Thorne, and Spencer remain unchanged, Rodney So'oialo the number 8 and Steve Devine as scrum half.

quote: Bitter = nectar of the gods. Pure and simple.

Simple yes, but pure? Forget it!

	14-10-2003 18:45									#467
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin IMO, the Game of Rugby played by the All Blacks (you know, this Rugby League pudding played with 15 players) relies too much on the individual qualities of the players and their ability to win the duels. Their beautiful organization could well fall apart against a team that is challenging them on this ground.

There appears to be a train of thought within NZ that the game has changed over the last year or so. Some believe that the days of tight defence-orientated percentages type play, and a game based around patience and control (similar to that which the Crusaders employed) are over.

It is now widely believed within NZ circles that firepower is key. You now need a style of play that has flair and skill, and that NZ oozes this more than any other rugby nation.

Is this the correct philosophy to adopt? Time will tell...

	14-10-2003 19:02									#468
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Elastic must be better than yet more tautology though?

quote: I assume you took today off work to watch Argentina -v- Namibia? I was feeling particularly perverse tonight, so I insisted Mrs finbar watch it with me.

Actually I’m at work but it was on ITVs digital channel so I caught a brief glimpse of it here and there on TVs around the place.

quote: Just listen to the poms blather on about Wilko and Johno being the 'best that's ever been'

The difference being that’s actually true?

Interesting team changes – but then he knows he doesn’t need to risk the entire first XV against a side Wales beat handily.

quote: Simple yes, but pure? Forget it!

Strangely it really is. Lager is the chemical soup of the alcohol world – bitter is mainly natural ingredients just given a little help in the brewing process. Damn now I fancy a beer!

quote: Is this the correct philosophy to adopt? Time will tell...

It’s certainly an arrogant philosophy don’t you think? Though I recognise the phrasing was carefully chosen by yourself.

Can’t quite put my finger on it – who are the defending World Champions again? And who is the number one ranked side in the world? Hmmm – grist for the mill there methinks…

	14-10-2003 21:47									#469
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quote: Originally posted by finbar It's a line he's used many times before! It doesn't get any funnier with the telling! Jacques Tati just somersaults once more in his grave!

I know I have used and overused this line before but it was only a reminder (it was in parenthesis) of what I am thinking about the Rugby played this side of the Hemisphere... just in case you would have forgotten.

And any line that is generating an is not a useless line.

quote: I assume you took today off work to watch Argentina -v- Namibia? I was feeling particularly perverse tonight, so I insisted Mrs finbar watch it with me. Gee, the Pumas have left their A game back on the Pampas.

It is a shame but the su*ke*s at France Télévision are only broadcasting the week end games involving the major teams.

	15-10-2003 00:28									#470
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quote: It is a shame but the su*ke*s at France Télévision are only broadcasting the week end games involving the major teams.

Thanx God, ESPN+ will broadcast every single game of the world cup!!!

	15-10-2003 04:34									#471
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin I know I have used and overused this line before but it was only a reminder (it was in parenthesis) of what I am thinking about the Rugby played this side of the Hemisphere... just in case you would have forgotten.

I could probably more easily forget my own name!

	15-10-2003 04:44									#472
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Former Wallaby great Mark Ella is working with the Japanese squad, helping them with backline play. After the Scotland -v- Japan match, and the praise heaped on the Japanese backs' efforts, Mark opined that the Wallaby backline "didn't stack up" against the Japanese backs.

Response #1. Former Wallaby prop, now Wallaby assistant coach, Ewen McKenzie, cracked the sh*ts, saying he knew which backline he'd rather have.

Response #2. Eddie Jones rang up Mark and inquired about possible player swaps.

Wake up, Ewen!

	15-10-2003 12:53									#473
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Australian humour - it's almost as hard to grasp as German humour?

Only kidding Finbar - Eddie nailed this one.

The Fiji-USA game is putting Fiji's reputed strength into perspective even as I write - it's not good stuff? No worries for Les Bleus from the Eagles here.

Interesting piece from John Inverdale I found here

Okay it is going to offend Kiwi's (particularly our friends who saw the forward passes against Georgia but kept totally silent on the ones against Italy) but John is a level headed guy and fairly astute normally. Perhaps Finbar can tell us if League and AFL are out to ridicule the tournament?

Last edited by Havak on 15-10-2003 at 13:02

	15-10-2003 14:11									#474
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Interesting piece from John Inverdale I found here

Glad to see I am not the only one to denounce the SH practices.

	15-10-2003 14:42									#475
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Strangely it really is. Lager is the chemical soup of the alcohol world – bitter is mainly natural ingredients just given a little help in the brewing process. Damn now I fancy a beer!

Chemicals Schmemicals.

	15-10-2003 14:58									#476
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quote: Glad to see I am not the only one to denounce the SH practices.

Well he is certainly doing that – but I think his net is cast over England and France on this one too.

Nice image Andydog!

In actual fact Caffreys is a smooth light brown ale and invokes that colour so it’s a fair accusation. But it's a lovely drink for what is effectively a keg beer (beer confused into thinking it's lager). It will also blow you head off - it's not a session drink.

And as for Guiness – well avoid strong curries after drinking it okay?

	15-10-2003 15:03									#477
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quote: Originally posted by Havak It’s certainly an arrogant philosophy don’t you think? Though I recognise the phrasing was carefully chosen by yourself.

I wouldn’t call it arrogant. The reasoning behind the philosophy appears to be this:

'99 we suffocated in the semi against a hell bent French side. In '95 we lost in the final against South Africa. In '91 we had the strongest players in the world but they didn’t play as a team and so got beaten by Aussie in another semi.

Thus it was decided approach wasn’t working and so we tried something different - Mitchell was appointed with a brief to win the World Cup and was given a free hand to make whatever changes he felt would be necessary to achieve that goal. He has mixed things up and introduced a lot of new faces. The changes were controversial but the result was a fresh, hungry squad with plenty of firepower.

The clean sweep of the Tri-Nation showed that this All Blacks side is on track to achieve that goal. (We did lost to England in June but nobody really considered that a failing because of the factors that I’ve already written about).

So it will come down to the NZ philosophy vs the England tried and tested formula. I ask again, which will prevail? I’m tending towards the NZ approach, but still haven’t quite made up my mind..

	15-10-2003 16:09									#478
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Well he is certainly doing that – but I think his net is cast over England and France on this one too.

Don't tell me these practices are not coming from the SH and that our two nations are only adapting their game in order to compete on the same ground as the SH heretics bending the rules to their own purposes.

Needless to say I strongly disagree with these changes.

	15-10-2003 16:16									#479
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quote: Originally posted by Andydog So it will come down to the NZ philosophy vs the England tried and tested formula. I ask again, which will prevail? I’m tending towards the NZ approach, but still haven’t quite made up my mind..

Havak, if England wins this B***** F****** World Cup I pay you a pint of ale at the Frog&Rosbiff at the first opportunity.

On the other side, if England does not make some kiwi juice out of those All Blacks, the French custom officers won't allow you to even think about entering the French territory.

	15-10-2003 17:18									#480
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quote: (We did lost to England in June but nobody really considered that a failing because of the factors that I’ve already written about).

You lost – and no one thought it was even worth thinking about because there were ‘factors’ that forgave it?

I'd have thought the failure to push over a six man scrum on it's own line might have given cause for a question or two about the uber team?

Can we assume the earlier loss in November and the awful game against France are also wiped from the memory?

Rugby is such a cyclical game - you are in great form right now but I think we forget that has not been the case very long this time around?

quote: So it will come down to the NZ philosophy vs the England tried and tested formula.

Um – this England team is at least as radically different in style from our 91, 95 and 99 sides as the AB one is – so I kind of lost your point in their somewhere.

I see Mitchell has changed players – and switching to an attacking fly half has been great for you – but what sweeping style changes has he made?

Though I loved the description of the three RWC losses. Sometimes we lose to better sides on the day – France certainly were against you, sadly the Boks were against us and in 91 the ‘Strongest’ side is surely the one that beat England in the Final – mentally at least? I will not cite 95 as it still holds bad memories for the ABs – food poisoning was it not?

Personally I think the thing that failed you in 91 was the overt support of Dame Kiri - imagine letting someone who married an Aussie sing before your games.

Tamerlin

Sure those factors came from the SH – but we are adapting our game around them, we can’t deny that. It’s wrong – but to beat the devil you have to become the devil.

And frankly your offer is very fair – I’ll be there should we win. If we lose I’ll just pop back here and say we were the strongest team in the tournament but lost to a better side on the day.