17-09-2003 05:56									#1
	Who Are Our (US) Allies? Get a bigger avatar today!

Here is an interesting National Review article about who we should consider our allies, friends, neutrals, and enemies and how our military should be postured to take account of these facts.

The money shot is...

quote: We should also accept the notion that neutrals are not allies, and thus should not pillory them for their triangulation. We are angry at France only because it is a duplicitous ally; once we cease seeing it as a close friend, we will be no more angry with it than we are with Sweden or New Zealand — which both have at times expressed their anti-Americanism, and expect nothing from us should they find themselves in crises. Germany's behavior now grates on us, but only because we expect it to be a Britain — rather than a Belgium, to which it is far more closely attuned. We should never be angry with Canada, simply because we should never expect anything from it — inasmuch as it has long ago decided to emulate the European Union model. Let us respect its status as a neutral and pacifistic state that neither wishes nor deserves cooperation with the United States in defense matters. By the same token, we must cease treating belligerents as friends and friends as neutrals (or worse). It makes absolutely no sense, for example, that Egypt has hundreds of Abrams tanks (that can only be used against Israel) while Australia has none. Indeed, the latter proved resolute and supportive in our current crisis; the former, constantly critical. More importantly, Australia is a rich, democratic, continent-sized nation, with common traditions and values like our own — and has been at our side through every major war.

Some of the article has too fine a point to it, but it's useful nonetheless.

http://www.nationalreview.com/hanson/hanson081403.asp

	17-09-2003 05:57									#2
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Satan, of course.

More seriously, I'd say everyone's pretty much pissed at us. Our allies rank at 0, depending upon your definition of ally.

	17-09-2003 06:01									#3
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If this is the case, then why are we spending our money stationing troops in other countries when it is not directly to our benefit?

	17-09-2003 06:02									#4
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A base is kaka. Use aircraft carriers. **** the Air Force.

	17-09-2003 06:04									#5
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As I say, Britain and maybe Israel, and start over from there.

TCO, the only thing worse than the Navy is the Girl Scouts.
Bunch of pussies.

	17-09-2003 06:06									#6
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A man is only truly free at sea. The Air Force is like a civil service. I took some MAC flights. They were more persnickety than Delta. Than I took a USMC hop. It was totally laid back. Hung out in the cockpit and all.

	17-09-2003 06:08									#7
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We can mostly use our bases in the US anyway. It's nice to be able to fly out of Diego Garcia or the UK sometimes, though, if only for the faster turnarounds.

We've got to have some way of inserting and extracting our UAVs, I guess.

	17-09-2003 06:10									#8
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Maybe it is to your benefit when one needs to project power quickly around the globe?

Oh, and that article contains a lot of whining.

	17-09-2003 06:11									#9
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US Allies? NATO and the rest of the Democratic World. Following along with some dipshit politician's little war is NOT the definition of an Ally. I think Britain, France, and Germany are our strongest allies. In a TRUE emergency... when there IS a real IMMENENT threat (not manipulations and distortions) they would be with us. Unfortunately, war-profiteering and ideologically blind politicians have alienated our allies with their lies.

	17-09-2003 06:12									#10
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quote: Maybe it is to your benefit when one needs to project power quickly around the globe?

Explain what you mean.

	17-09-2003 06:13									#11
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USMC? Oh thats the definitive in flight, no question.

Stupidass squids.

	17-09-2003 06:13									#12
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what about Australia? we go an fight in all your wars...

	17-09-2003 06:14									#13
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Come on, Horse. You could at least read the first post...

	17-09-2003 06:14									#14
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AH: Didn't you read the second paragraph that I quoted?

	17-09-2003 06:15									#15
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Come on. Military bases around the globe help to move troops around the globe.

	17-09-2003 06:16									#16
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How so? The vast majority of our people fly direct from the States anyway (well, they make a stop-off in Ireland for Iraq). This isn't like it used to be.

	17-09-2003 06:19									#17
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I don't agree with the author's **** everyone who doesn't agree with us stance also his suggestion that we should close all of our bases in countries which don't support our foreign policy 100% of the time in niave.

	17-09-2003 06:20									#18
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What do they make all day long then on Ramstein AFB and elsewhere? Oh, perhaps I should clarify - by troops I mean not just soldiers - just anything which is needed for an operation.

	17-09-2003 06:23									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin I don't agree with the author's **** everyone who doesn't agree with us stance also his suggestion that we should close all of our bases in countries which don't support our foreign policy 100% of the time in niave.

I agree... our Allies shouldn't change every time a new political party controls the presidency...

	17-09-2003 06:27									#20
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quote: Originally posted by DanS How so? The vast majority of our people fly direct from the States anyway (well, they make a stop-off in Ireland for Iraq). This isn't like it used to be.

Search and rescue coverage doesn't come from US bases... for just about every sortie the US flies, the military wants search and rescue coverage on call in case of a downed aircraft. For instance, the US negotiated heavily to have bases in Uzbekistan during the Afghan campaign. In fact, air raids after 9-11 couldn't happen until they had such coverage. Even though stealth bombers have their bases in Missouri, or wherever, the search and rescue aircraft in flight during flight ops comes from countries local to the operations.

	17-09-2003 06:32									#21
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There are some really big bases in Germany and Italy (as well as other parts of Western Europe) which represent ALOT of capital being spent to build them up. They're very useful in transporting ligistics and many of our medical facilities in Germany are the closest first rate military hospitals to Iraq. I know in Kosovo soldiers and civilians who were injured almost always got air lifted to German bases because that's where we had our best military hospitals in Europe.

	17-09-2003 06:33									#22
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quote: also his suggestion that we should close all of our bases in countries which don't support our foreign policy 100% of the time in niave

Come on now. You know he didn't suggest that.

	17-09-2003 06:35									#23
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Explain what you mean.

When you want somethign from someone and they're giving you a hard time, you can point to the bunker you've built in their backyard.

	17-09-2003 06:35									#24
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He sure did.

	17-09-2003 06:35									#25
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quote: There are some really big bases in Germany and Italy (as well as other parts of Western Europe) which represent ALOT of capital being spent to build them up. They're very useful in transporting ligistics and many of our medical facilities in Germany are the closest first rate military hospitals to Iraq. I know in Kosovo soldiers and civilians who were injured almost always got air lifted to German bases because that's where we had our best military hospitals in Europe.

As they are doing for Iraq. But why do we need to have our best military hospitals in Europe? They could just as easily be in the States or some other country.

	17-09-2003 06:38									#26
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quote: He sure did.

Where?

	17-09-2003 06:40									#27
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It took me just over 20 hours (not counting the stop Newfoundland) to fly from the San Francisco bay area to Germany via a C-141. Remember that the C-141 is one of the fastest military transport planes we have.

It's much better to have forward bases then to try to take all of the wounded and all of the supplies directly to the country in question especially since we don't know what the next country in question is going to be.

	17-09-2003 06:40									#28
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We're continent sized so watch out! We'll squash you!

	17-09-2003 06:42									#29
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quote: When you want somethign from someone and they're giving you a hard time, you can point to the bunker you've built in their backyard.

The point was many of our permanent bases in the Gulf War were primarily used as a way of extracting something from the US, or trying to stop us from doing what we were going to do. Of course, they were just following the wishes of their people, but who needs the hassle?

	17-09-2003 06:45									#30
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quote: It's much better to have forward bases then to try to take all of the wounded and all of the supplies directly to the country in question especially since we don't know what the next country in question is going to be.

I agree with this, but it doesn't require anywhere near the scope of a Rammstein. We can pick and choose the scope for each base.