17-09-2003 23:46									#31
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Connorly rocks

I remember the protests on campus when Prop 209 went through... All white kids, and maybe a few black kids worried about their grades

	17-09-2003 23:47									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia Maybe one of the reasons they pay more is because not everybody wants to be a teacher, so they need to raise wages to attract more.

Maybe or then again maybe it's because the teachers Union is the largest union in the state and they only give campaign contributions to politicians who give them pay raises. How about we get teachers out of politics and back into teaching children?

	17-09-2003 23:50									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Here is a good link for the school districts in San Diego county where I am currently moving back to. They make an average of $50k per year, have 12 weeks of vacation, and work 6 hour days. Even if you include 2 hours per day for grading papers you still are only at a regular 8 hour work day with a vacation rate six times the national average.

As my friends who live there keep telling me, San Diego is a rather expensive place to live. $50K there doesn't go as far as it does here. And, except for grade school teachers, I imagine they work spend quite a bit more time on homework than just two hours. They also have to make lesson plans, read up on the material, etc.

	17-09-2003 23:53									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin How about we get teachers out of politics and back into teaching children?

How about we live in a free society instead where people are allowed to be in politics regardless of their profession? Or should we do as the Anthenians, and have all public servants be slaves?

	17-09-2003 23:59									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Here is a good link for the school districts in San Diego county where I am currently moving back to. They make an average of $50k per year, have 12 weeks of vacation, and work 6 hour days. Even if you include 2 hours per day for grading papers you still are only at a regular 8 hour work day with a vacation rate six times the national average. Top off with the fact that most teachers get degrees in the easy non-science displines and you see why the teachers are really over paid and not under paid.

Over here, they make about 32K per year. But a lot of schools here have buget shortfalls, meaning that sometimes the teachers themselves have to pay for the supplies they need. Meaning that number can quickly go down.

	18-09-2003 00:03									#36
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It's just more proof that our government is full of waste.

	18-09-2003 00:06									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Dispite the propoganda the teachers get paid very, very well for someone who gets 12 weeks of vacation per year.

If they did teachers wouldn't quit. Many of them do.

	18-09-2003 00:09									#38
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Any way you cut it the teachers are well paid and they've tried to block every single attempt at reforming the school system. There is no excuse for paying the most per student yet getting some of the worst results.

Something needs to change and I've given my plan. Why don't some of you guys step up to the plate and say how you'd improve things?

	18-09-2003 00:11									#39
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Public boarding schools!

	18-09-2003 00:15									#40
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The most important part of my plan is to cut the middle men out and to spend 75%, instead of 50%, of education funds on students and school facilities. That will at least insure smaller class sizes and better school conditions & equipment for the students. That's bound to improve learning conditions.

Killing the unions' political power is just the means to achieve this end as well as to impliment the strong tests so we can grade how our schools are doing.

	18-09-2003 00:16									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Any way you cut it the teachers are well paid and they've tried to block every single attempt at reforming the school system.

In your opinion. How would you like your pay cut?

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin There is no excuse for paying the most per student yet getting some of the worst results.

Except that the results would be worse if we spent less. What else do you want to spend the money on?

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Something needs to change and I've given my plan. Why don't some of you guys step up to the plate and say how you'd improve things?

How about we don't just use the old republican way of f'cking things up more by cutting funding?

	18-09-2003 00:18									#42
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Teachers accross the country are NOT a highly paid job, and as someone how just taught for 8 weeks a couple of summers, i can say that even that was a lot of work. Being a teacher is not an attractive job anymore, if it ever was in the US.

	18-09-2003 00:19									#43
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Public boarding schools!

talk about the left advancing the homosexual agenda...

	18-09-2003 00:20									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious In your opinion. How would you like your pay cut? Except that the results would be worse if we spent less. What else do you want to spend the money on? How about we don't just use the old republican way of f'cking things up more by cutting funding?

Read the posts. We wouldn't cut spending. Instead we'd actually spend more money on students and less money on over head which hasn't produced results. We'd be redirecting existing funds from nonproforming buerocratic over head and into things which directly effect students.

More schools and better repaired school, smaller class sizes, newer books (hopefully written by experts who don't have political bones to pick), more library books, more and newer computers. You honestly don't see how this would improve educations enviroments?

	18-09-2003 00:25									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Read the posts. We wouldn't cut spending. Instead we'd actually spend more money on students and less money on over head which hasn't produced results. We'd be redirecting existing funds from nonproforming buerocratic over head and into things which directly effect students. More schools and better repaired school, smaller class sizes, newer books (hopefully written by experts who don't have political bones to pick), more library books, more and newer computers. You honestly don't see how this would improve educations enviroments?

I have a particular problem with your proposition to break the teachers unions, and your claim that teachers are paid too much. Teachers are still underpaid. It's a very stressfull job that requires 5 years of college. Most teachers have to repay college loans.

	18-09-2003 00:29									#46
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Teachers accross the country are NOT a highly paid job,

Per Capita income in the US is around $35k per year and where I live the average high school teacher is making $55,097 and he gets 12 weeks off instead of average of 2-3 weeks off. Simple math shows that they make 1/3 more then average and as the link I provided earlier showed they made more then many other professionals in the same job market.

They're well paid and we spend enough on education (remember our per student spending is the highest in the world). Our big problem is that the money gets sucked up by a useless beuracracy instead of going towards improving learning conditions for students. That's not just my opinion that's the opinion of many experts.

	18-09-2003 00:29									#47
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A couple of weeks ago Newsweek reported that primary education (K-12) accounts for one half of California's budget. If you were spending one half of your budget on something, and felt that you were not getting your money's worth, would you spend more money, or find more effective ways to spend the money you have?

	18-09-2003 00:31									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Per Capita income in the US is around $35k per year and where I live the average high school teacher is making $55,097 and he gets 12 weeks off instead of average of 2-3 weeks off. Simple math shows that they make 1/3 more then average and as the link I provided earlier showed they made more then many other professionals in the same job market. They're well paid and we spend enough on education (remember our per student spending is the highest in the world). Our big problem is that the money gets sucked up by a useless beuracracy instead of going towards improving learning conditions for students. That's not just my opinion that's the opinion of many experts.

Why don't you teach high school then?

	18-09-2003 00:32									#49
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I notice that for all the critics not a single one of you can explain why we spend the most per student but get the worst results in the industrialized world. There's been lots of whining, but Che aside , no one has said what they'd do to fix this mess.

	18-09-2003 00:32									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Why don't you teach high school then?

Because I got laid off from my job a week and a half ago and now I'm trying to find a job.

	18-09-2003 00:35									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Adam Smith A couple of weeks ago Newsweek reported that primary education (K-12) accounts for one half of California's budget. If you were spending one half of your budget on something, and felt that you were not getting your money's worth, would you spend more money, or find more effective ways to spend the money you have?

We spend 40% of the state budget on education and the politicians only do that because the people passed a state proposition (a publicite if you will) making it law that they do so. Before that the politicians kept cutting education so they could fund their pet projects. Luckily California has a propsition system which lets the people intervine when the politicians ignore them (as Davis is currently finding out).

	18-09-2003 00:38									#52
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Last I checked, the average pay for a teacher in one os the Dakota's 9I forget north or south) was 23k a year.

Why don't you find the median income of the city of San Diego and then compare where median teacher incomes in san Diego come out to? Any other numbes you use are apples and steaks, and make for incorrect and misleading comparisons.

And read the thread..I sugested centralization and moving education funding from property taxes. If everyone else spends less and gets more, it seems obvious to ask, what does everyone else do right? One thing is clear, almost every other large industrilized state (including ones with very strong labor unions, even for teachers) has a highy centralized education system run out of ministries, NOT by local boards and local parents groups.

	18-09-2003 00:38									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin I notice that for all the critics not a single one of you can explain why we spend the most per student but get the worst results in the industrialized world. There's been lots of whining, but Che aside , no one has said what they'd do to fix this mess.

It's not because of the teachers. I'm sure they are as well trained as any in the world, probably better trained than most.

	18-09-2003 00:40									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Because I got laid off from my job a week and a half ago and now I'm trying to find a job.

Get your emergency credential. Then go and substitute teach at the high schools there. I bet you will change your tone.

	18-09-2003 00:41									#55
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Oh, btw. Sorry to hear that you got laid off Oerdin.

	18-09-2003 00:42									#56
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Why don't you find the median income of the city of San Diego and then compare where median teacher incomes in san Diego come out to?.

http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Diego

quote: Males have a median income of $36,984 versus $31,076 for females.

Slightly above the national average but not enough to significantly change the satistics.

edit: Our numbers are scewed down ward by the presence of several very large military bases populated by low ranking military personnel. If you exclude the military bases then I'm sure the income would raise.

	18-09-2003 00:47									#57
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quote: Originally posted by GePap And read the thread..I sugested centralization and moving education funding from property taxes. If everyone else spends less and gets more, it seems obvious to ask, what does everyone else do right? One thing is clear, almost every other large industrilized state (including ones with very strong labor unions, even for teachers) has a highy centralized education system run out of ministries, NOT by local boards and local parents groups.

Sorry, I missed your suggestion. We have property tax income equalized by the state and then redistributed equally by the state government. We have been doing this since the 1970's so I think we've already moved educational spending away from property taxes. The problem is the test scores still suck.

Having standardized curriculum would improve things I think. We used to but an unholy alliance of fundamentalist Christians and die-hard leftists joined together and complained the standard curriculum wasn't sensitive enough to their needs. That's why in the very late 1970's the local school boards were empowered to make those choices.

	18-09-2003 01:50									#58
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Oerdin: I fail to see how union busting is going to improve things. For some odd reason, you seem to think teachers are well off.

	18-09-2003 01:53									#59
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quote: How about we live in a free society instead where people are allowed to be in politics regardless of their profession?

Even extending to religious leaders ala Pat Robertson?

	18-09-2003 01:55									#60
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT quote: How about we live in a free society instead where people are allowed to be in politics regardless of their profession? Even extending to religious leaders ala Pat Robertson?

Just because I don't agree with him doesn't mean I think he should be excluded from the political process (however much I might wish the hand of God came down and squished him).