17-09-2003 20:47									#1
	Report: US is #1 in School Spending Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

http://www.cnn.com/2003/EDUCATION/0...d.ap/index.html

quote: WASHINGTON (AP) -- The United States spends more public and private money on education than other major countries, but its performance doesn't measure up in areas ranging from high-school graduation rates to test scores in math, reading and science, a new report shows. "There are countries which don't get the bang for the bucks, and the U.S. is one of them," said Barry McGaw, education director for the Paris-based Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, which produced the annual review of industrialized nations. The United States spent $10,240 per student from elementary school through college in 2000, according to the report. The average was $6,361 among more than 25 nations. The range stretched from less than $3,000 per student in Turkey, Mexico, the Slovak Republic and Poland to more than $8,000 per student in Denmark, Norway, Austria and Switzerland. The report cited Australia, Finland, Ireland, Korea and the United Kingdom as examples of OECD nations that have moderate spending on primary and lower secondary education but high levels of performance by 15-year-olds in key subject areas. As for the United States, it finished in the middle of the pack in its 15-year-olds' performance on math, reading and science in 2000, and its high-school graduation rate was below the international average in 2001 -- figures highlighted by Education Secretary Rod Paige. The country fared better in reading literacy among fourth-graders, where it finished among the top scorers in 2001. But the declining performance as students grow older served as a warning to the nation, Paige said. "These results highlight an extremely important truth about our educational system: I think we have become complacent, self-satisfied and often lacking the will to do better," Paige said. International benchmarks Appropriate spending has emerged as a key political issue this year as the nation's schools deal with federal reforms. The No Child Left Behind law demands better performance from students and teachers, particularly in low-income districts, but critics say Republican leaders in Congress have spent too little on the effort. The report, released Tuesday, sets international benchmarks and identifies areas for improvement. Based on educational level, the report says the United States spends the most on higher education for every student and is a leading spender on primary and secondary education. Paige said the nation must fill the gap between it and other countries, and bridge another between students succeeding in American public schools and those falling behind. Within that promising fourth-grade reading showing in the United States, Paige said, is a revealing number: the higher the percentage of poor students, the lower the average score. "There's no such thing as a 'typical' fourth-grader," Paige said. "We want to go to each fourth-grader. We need to see who needs the help." The new federal law requires states to chart adequate yearly progress -- not just for a school's overall population, but for groups such as minorities and students who speak little English. Sanctions grow by the year for schools receiving low-income aid that don't improve enough. Consequences range from letting students transfer to a better school within their districts to handing control of a poor-performing school to the state. "No other country is imposing such a rigorous requirement on its schools," McGaw said. But from school boards to Congress, growing numbers of leaders say the federal government isn't committing enough money to the task. States must, for example, expand their standardized testing and put a highly qualified teacher in every core class by 2005-06. Federal education spending has grown by $11 billion since President Bush took office, Paige said, but that includes spending beyond the first 12 grades. Even increased money for elementary and secondary education doesn't cover the law's sweeping expenses, said David Shreve of the National Conference of State Legislatures. "You can't just mandate that things happen and then not follow up with the resources to make it happen," said Shreve, senior director for the conference's education committee. Comparisons of spending among countries is difficult, he added, because the systems vary widely.

So, we throw money at the problem and it won't go away. What is the solution? Obviously more money isn't going to fix this, seeing as how the US spends much more than any other state and they have better results.

	17-09-2003 20:56									#2
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A less segregated society would be a start. Most good students are good because they come from a positive learning environment, and you'll see clear trends of people from working-class families performing worse than those from middle and upper class families.

The natural solution is to increase taxes and adopt a system of generalised welfare where nearly everyone is healthy, well educated (to a university level if possible) and an active member of the community. More healthy, educated parents with less working hours and better wages -> better school results.

	17-09-2003 21:00									#3
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so all they all have to do to get value for money is create the 'perfect' (in your eyes) world first, genius.

imran, i see you lot are discovering that throwing good money after bad doesn't work (see also the NHS).

	17-09-2003 21:02									#4
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quote: The natural solution is to increase taxes and adopt a system of generalised welfare where nearly everyone is healthy, well educated (to a university level if possible) and an active member of the community. More healthy, educated parents with less working hours and better wages -> better school results.

Why does that necessarily follow? I'm not sure more 'healthy' kids are better students, and being active members of the community matters not at all. Parents, even with less working hours, wouldn't be any more involved in their children's learning. They'd take the time off for themselves more likely.

I don't really think that would really work. Something must be done about inner city schools, yes, but one of the main problems there is the culture. You can try to improve the lot of the people there by economic incentives to have jobs move in, etc., but you are going to have a HELL of time changing the culture that exists there.

	17-09-2003 21:04									#5
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quote: i see you lot are discovering that throwing good money after bad doesn't work

Yep... the money is going to waste it seems. We definetly have a problem of local property taxes paying for schools, but you don't really have political upswell for a change in that. People seem to agree, for the most part, that education is a local affair.

I think it'd be political infeasible for a US state to say property taxes go to the state and we'll pay for all schools.

	17-09-2003 21:09									#6
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There is not enough centralized planning in the school systems..lots of redundant systems: each little town has it's own administrators, its own textbook committees, so forth and so on. At a minimum, each State should have tight control of all public school systems and create standard curriculums, set standard texts, test teachers and so forth: that should cut a lot of the overhead, which then opens up more resources to target the main issue like low teacher pay and lack of basic supplies i poor neighborhoods, which is another thing, education should be paid out of central treasuries, not local property taxes.

	17-09-2003 21:16									#7
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well we have people over calling for it to be de-centralised, you can't please everybody

i agree with you about the culture thing in cities but it's the same in a lot of places. i never valued education, for me school was someowhere i sat for a few hours a day until i could join the army, for mates it was until they could to the factories. only after the army rejected me (because i'm diabetic) did i start thinking i might have to do something with my life.

	17-09-2003 21:36									#8
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a culture that prizes learning, rather than sports, gangsta rap, or sex idols.

parents and children who respect the teachers, rather than thinking the teachers are always wrong.

administrations caring less about lawsuits and more about the children.

	17-09-2003 21:42									#9
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Solution: Crush the teachers' unions which prevent school reform and harm children while protecting hide bound bureaucrats then pass a law which mandates 75% of all school spending go directly towards students or the facilities which students themselves use instead of the 50% which goes to the bureaucracy like the LA
Unified spends. Top it off with tough standards (which the teachers unions have always opposed BTW) and make sure that every kid who fails the test gets held back even when more black kids fail then white kids.

	17-09-2003 21:44									#10
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Say bye-bye to sport scholarships and entries based on athletic merit...

and what Ordin said.

	17-09-2003 21:44									#11
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quote: then pass a law which mandates 75% of all school spending go directly towards students or the facilities which students themselves use instead of the 50% which goes to the bureaucracy like the LA

This would have to be passed by the states, you know?

If the federal government did it, it might be struck down as unconstitutional.

	17-09-2003 21:45									#12
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All these point to that the 60/70s culture is crap.

	17-09-2003 22:15									#13
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Well, the Chicago Public School District has a policy where if a school has too low of a performance, they cut funding to the school and eventually close it down.

	17-09-2003 23:07									#14
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Anyway, I agree wholeheartedly that it's the culture.

Edit: Probably best I don't test the jingoism.

Last edited by Comrade Tassadar on 17-09-2003 at 23:19

	17-09-2003 23:11									#15
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@Tass

Nice try you commie loonatic

	17-09-2003 23:13									#16
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Read below.

Last edited by Comrade Tassadar on 17-09-2003 at 23:21

	17-09-2003 23:19									#17
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Covering your ass for all us ignorant Americans who would jump all over you for saying they're ignorant (a.k.a stupid - to ignorant Americans)...

I do agree that it is a cultrue problem though, yet I would attribute more towards greed/money than towards ignorance.

	17-09-2003 23:21									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Japher I do agree that it is a cultrue problem though, yet I would attribute more towards greed/money than towards ignorance.

Nono, I'm saying the culture problem CAUSES ignorance, not the other way around.

	17-09-2003 23:23									#19
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Good point.

	17-09-2003 23:24									#20
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Do these numbers take into account the cost of living differences and pay scale differences?

	17-09-2003 23:25									#21
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Sex-Based, Intellectually Satisfied Culture --> Ignorance, essentially.

You can still keep the sex based part. But if our culture promoted intellectualism, I'm pretty sure intellectual levels in America would rise.
Though we must be careful not to go to South Korean levels. I hear they beat their students for getting lower than a perfect (or near-perfect) score

	17-09-2003 23:26									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Solution: Crush the teachers' unions which . . .

. . . causes teachers to quit and new teachers not to bother. Teachers have a right to make a living and work in a decent work place just like everyone else.

	17-09-2003 23:27									#23
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Dispite the propoganda the teachers get paid very, very well for someone who gets 12 weeks of vacation per year.

	17-09-2003 23:29									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Dispite the propoganda the teachers get paid very, very well for someone who gets 12 weeks of vacation per year.

Unfortunately, they don't get paid very well for when their not on vacation.

	17-09-2003 23:35									#25
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Here is a good link for the school districts in San Diego county where I am currently moving back to. They make an average of $50k per year, have 12 weeks of vacation, and work 6 hour days. Even if you include 2 hours per day for grading papers you still are only at a regular 8 hour work day with a vacation rate six times the national average.

Top off with the fact that most teachers get degrees in the easy non-science displines and you see why the teachers are really over paid and not under paid.

quote: Countywide, the average teacher salary in a high-school district was $55,097. The average salary in a unified-school district was $51,793 and the average salary in an elementary-school district was $51,015. While teachers did make less money than computer engineers and optometrists, they made as much or more than many other professional workers in San Diego. For example, biological scientists made $52,300, less than the average high-school-district teacher. Those making less than the average K–12 teacher include management analysts at $50,797, chemists at $49,122, registered nurses at $46,481, accountants and auditors at $42,774, and postsecondary math teachers at $49,426.

	17-09-2003 23:35									#26
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I say we spend more.

	17-09-2003 23:36									#27
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my brother-in-law is a teacher, and he works summers for the forrest services and does very well...

	17-09-2003 23:38									#28
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quote: Originally posted by monolith94 I say we spend more.

I say we should get more value for our money before spending more.

	17-09-2003 23:42									#29
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quote: Here is a good link for the school districts in San Diego county where I am currently moving back to. They make an average of $50k per year, have 12 weeks of vacation, and work 6 hour days. Even if you include 2 hours per day for grading papers you still are only at a regular 8 hour work day with a vacation rate six times the national average. Top off with the fact that most teachers get degrees in the easy non-science displines and you see why the teachers are really over paid and not under paid.

Maybe one of the reasons they pay more is because not everybody wants to be a teacher, so they need to raise wages to attract more.

	17-09-2003 23:44									#30
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quote: Originally posted by monolith94 I say we spend more.

I say we spend the same and cut the over head formed of civil servants so more of the money goes to kids and not buerocrates. I was listening to UC Regant Ward Connorly last night on public access and the more I listened to him the more his current state proposition made sense. For those of you who don't know Ward Connorly is a black-American (he hates the term African-American since he's never been to Africa) who wrote and then got the anti-Affirmative Action proposition passed a few years back. His main point is that basing aid upon a persons race is racist and immoral and we should be basing our aid upon people's economic status and not their race.

Any way Ward has writen another proposition where it would outlaw the state from collecting race based satistics. The federal government would still stay in the race satistics business so no real data would be lost but the state would free alot of resources which could instead be used to help disadvantage kids based upon economic need and not race. Connorly said that LA Unified spends a whoppinh 12% of it's annual budget collecting racial data, analysising it, coming up with elaborate AA schemes, and the whole time test scores haven't risen. 20 years of this junk is long enough and by killing the collection of racial data by the state we kill the reason for the racial beurocrates to exist; thus we can eliminate that over head and spend that 12% on students instead of giving it to racial "advicates" who never produce results.