18-09-2003 01:56									#61
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT quote: How about we live in a free society instead where people are allowed to be in politics regardless of their profession? Even extending to religious leaders ala Pat Robertson?

Pat Robertson can participate all he likes. In the end, the first Amendment is stronger than those who would wish to violate it.

	18-09-2003 01:59									#62
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As some of you seems to be really interested in teachers salaries... And talkning about money:

It might be a stupib but fundamental question, are that report taking into consideration the different costs in the different countries. With the help of PPPs for example?

	18-09-2003 02:06									#63
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Not sure how many conclusions you can draw from the original study since education spending is so varied. Saying we spend ten thousand dollars per kid proly means that some kids get a whole lot more and others a whole lot less, which doesn't say anything more about the REAL state of American education than the per capita figures say about the REAL income of those Arab countries with the oil sheiks.

It would be absolutely wonderful to be able to magically say "let's cut bureaucracy" and get more bang for the same level of money. Everyone wants to be able to get a higher quality product for the same amount of money. But we don't (except maybe in California, where I have my suspicions) hire people to twiddle their thumbs behind a desk all day and suck up money. The bureaucrats are all curriculum planners, counselors, superintendents, et cetera. If you want to use the "cut bureaucracy" solution, you'll have to say exactly what jobs you think should be cut if you want it to be more than just a magic bullet.

I say the problem lies with the teaching styles used, mostly.

	18-09-2003 02:15									#64
	My two cents... Remove this text

Parents are the most important component to education, no if and or buts about it. The only thing that is even close to being as important is the childs own drive and desire to learn. You get a kid who wants to learn (or a family where learning is valued) and it becomes largely irrelevant how much per capita money is being spent in his/her school.

But there's nothing we can do about the above... other than when we are parents, that is.

Otoh, there are things that one can do to improve education, and (imho) the biggest change we can effect is a structural change in the job of teaching. Here in the US up to 40% of a teachers time is spent doing clerical tasks that have very little to do with education - from grading tests to filling out state-required forms (I know this one special ed teacher who must fill out TWENTY-SEVEN forms for every new child admitted into his class - and God forbid that any one of the forms is incorrect because it requires a complete refiling of all TWENTY-SEVEN forms). This vast amount of time essentially means that students are given boiler-plate lesson plans that are easy to fulfill because they are the same lesson plans you used last year.. and the year before that, and the year before that... No chance for the teacher to offer creativity in learning, no time for the teacher to adapt their lesson plans as they go along the school year, no desire to do the extra work necessary to be a proper teacher because, shlt, that'll just require 30 more forms to fill out and hours spent explaining why you deviated from the norm to your principal and any other interested party who thinks that your time is their own. "Fvck that - I'll just rehash the same lesson plans that have never gotten anybody in trouble rather than be creative about it" is the attitude that develops in such a system, and it shows.

Another big problem, one that you rarely hear anybody complain about, is the necessity for teachers to "teach for the test" rather than teaching for understanding. This is almost imperative among American teachers today, especially in states that were stupid enough to offer "Hope Scholarships" (ala the State of Georgia), where a child is "entitled" to a free college education if they maintain a certain GPA + SAT score in school. Why spend any time whatsoever teaching about Asiatic cultures if you know that Asiatic cultures are never asked about on the Iowa (or is it Minnesota) Basic Skills Test, the ACT, or the SAT - to do so, while teaching your students something about the world around them, can leave your otherwise educated students woefully unprepared for the test: and woe be unto the teacher whose students are just "average" on the SAT, especially if Mommy and Daddy are looking for a free handout.

I gotta go, but I'll add some more tonight...

	18-09-2003 02:20									#65
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In regards to point number one, I don't mind if the "bureaucracy" is increased if schools hire "teaching assistants" (or secretaries, as we call them in the business world) to assist in the damn paperwork. 1 for every 3-5 teachers sounds about right.

	18-09-2003 02:35									#66
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"Per Capita income in the US is around $35k per year and where I live the average high school teacher is making $55,097"

That means on the other side of the spectrum there are some teachers that get paid around 25K a year.

	18-09-2003 02:44									#67
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There are some good points in the above posts. The real isue is if we eliminate 17 of those 27 pages of paper work JohnT spoke about then we won't need as many paper pushers back in the headquarters office. Also in the last 20 years I've heard all about how middle managers have been cut in private industry but the number of middlemangers has never been bigger in government. I suspect that a fair number of these managers could be let go if we stream lined the paper work process and maybe automated the forms via computer instead of hand writting them out. That would decrease the duplication of effort and mean we won't need all those desk jockeys to sort through the resulting paperwork.

Ward Connorly's Proposition to kill the California state'sracial satistics bureaucracy is an excellent example of how we can cut useless overhead and redirect funds towards students instead of "advicates" or bureaucrates. When it comes down to it schools, teachers, and teaching assistants are good because they have direct contact with students and all of the other administrators are just a necissary evil which we have to put up with. The best thing is to cap the size of the over head so that we get the most for our students out of the money we already spend.

	18-09-2003 02:56									#68
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quote: Originally posted by monolith94 "Per Capita income in the US is around $35k per year and where I live the average high school teacher is making $55,097" That means on the other side of the spectrum there are some teachers that get paid around 25K a year.

I have no experience with other states though here in California they seem to be paid just fine for their job. Also they get lots of extra little goodies such as subsidized home loans which let teachers buy houses in the area where they work.

	18-09-2003 07:51									#69
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quote: Originally posted by monolith94 "Per Capita income in the US is around $35k per year and where I live the average high school teacher is making $55,097" That means on the other side of the spectrum there are some teachers that get paid around 25K a year.

He was talking about per capita income for people in general, not teachers. So that does not necessarily mean that there are teachers that get paid around 25K a year.

	18-09-2003 08:00									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Solution: Crush the teachers' unions which prevent school reform and harm children while protecting hide bound bureaucrats then pass a law which mandates 75% of all school spending go directly towards students or the facilities which students themselves use instead of the 50% which goes to the bureaucracy like the LA Unified spends. Top it off with tough standards (which the teachers unions have always opposed BTW) and make sure that every kid who fails the test gets held back even when more black kids fail then white kids.

Yeah -- teachers have such a luxurious salary, don't they?

	18-09-2003 08:08									#71
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MrFun, Oerdin has cited statistics, which puts him one up on you.

	18-09-2003 08:08									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Jaguar Warrior MrFun, Oerdin has cited statistics, which puts him one up on you.

And statistics can be manipulated.

	18-09-2003 08:10									#73
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun And statistics can be manipulated.

Yikes, my modem is so slow that you replied before the thread loaded. 17 more days until I get a good one, though.

Anyway, let's see you manipulate some statistics, then.

	18-09-2003 08:14									#74
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Jaguar Warrior Yikes, my modem is so slow that you replied before the thread loaded. 17 more days until I get a good one, though. Anyway, let's see you manipulate some statistics, then.

It's common knowledge that teachers are under-paid.

As for actual statistics on this, well, I can't be arsed to do that, since I'm too damn lazy.

	18-09-2003 08:21									#75
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Stop teaching kids that don't want to learn. You are throwing money in the trash when you do that.

That makes smaller class sizes.

ACK!

	18-09-2003 08:30									#76
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Tuberski Stop teaching kids that don't want to learn. You are throwing money in the trash when you do that. That makes smaller class sizes.

Now that would be an interesting study, wouldn't it. To study the resounding effects over at 10 year study of a school district that severly enforces a three strikes and you are out of school forever policy. I saw the program in the discovery times channel about schools in innercity chicago who are implimenting military control/Jrotc for the whole school. In it, they compared it to the surrounding schools... I must say, were I a teacher in one of those inner city schools, I would definitly want to get rid of all those who don't want to be there!

	18-09-2003 08:43									#77
	Inflate your Upload Space

It would, although half in jest, it's not a totally bad idea, combining students that want to learn in a group, will make that group more learning oriented.

Students that don't want to? Get rid of them, or put them in groups where they have to learn.

Force the ones that don't learn, encourage and help those that do.

ACK!

	18-09-2003 08:54									#78
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quote: Top off with the fact that most teachers get degrees in the easy non-science displines and you see why the teachers are really over paid and not under paid.

In Canada

Plumber: 2 years technical training - 100 K/yr

Teacher: 5 years of university - 50K/yr

Yes, teachers are overpaid given their flimsy qualifications.

What would I do to correct the situation in the US?

Standardised testing and curricula, for each state.

Streams, allowing top students to do a more difficult curriculum.

Fix up all the school supplies, etc. so that these take priority over other things, computers, etc. Buy the books before the technology.

	18-09-2003 08:56									#79
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Another thing -- some schools have double positions -- such as having their PE teacher/athletic coach teach History.

HIRE TEACHERS WHO ARE KNOWLEDGEABLE IN WHATEVER COURSE THEY SPECIALIZE IN!!!

	18-09-2003 08:58									#80
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quote: It's common knowledge that teachers are under-paid. As for actual statistics on this, well, I can't be arsed to do that, since I'm too damn lazy.

Don't worry, I have taken the liberty of doing it for you.

First result of google search for "average US public school teacher salary" (search did not have quote marks.)

quote: The average salary of a U.S. public school teacher for the school year 2000-01 was $43,335.

http://www.teateachers.org/newsctr/2002/jul/04006.php

	18-09-2003 08:59									#81
	Inflate your Upload Space

All you guys who are blaming teachers can shove it up your azzes

For what they do they are UNDERPAID

I'd like to see some of you do a better job. Some of them should get WAR PAY.

Teachers don't teach anymore. Back in the day all they had to do was prepare a lesson plan and then go to school and TEACH.

Now their job is the following:

1) Social worker
2) Security guard
3) Paperwork administrator
4) Teacher

Notice that teacher is last on those duties. They are so busy handling the other BS crap that they don't have as much time to focus on teaching as they once did.

	18-09-2003 09:15									#82
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See if I can't find Canadian stats.

http://www.meq.gouv.qc.ca/stat/indi...03A/ia03110.pdf

A caveat.

quote: In addition to teachers, educators also include school administrators and nonteaching professionals who work with students (e.g. education consultants, guidance counsellors and pastoral animators).

Canada: 56 081 CDN

Actual 'teacher' salaries will be lower since administrators are included in the definition of 'educator'.

	18-09-2003 19:31									#83
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quote: Though we must be careful not to go to South Korean levels. I hear they beat their students for getting lower than a perfect (or near-perfect) score

what, your parents didn't do that to you?
more seriously, my youngest cousin goes to school at 7 in the morning, and comes home at 4. he then eats dinner, gets a bit of free time, and then goes back to another prep school from 7pm to about 10.
he's in the fourth grade.

quote: Any way you cut it the teachers are well paid and they've tried to block every single attempt at reforming the school system. There is no excuse for paying the most per student yet getting some of the worst results

it's not enough to have a family of three live on comfortably and have one of those kids in an elite school.
i've got a few scholarships and finaid, but i've also got loans up the wazoo, and mom's the only person who has a permanent full-time job. she has to pay for my school and basic necessities for my brother and herself. she can make ends meet, but it comes at the cost of:
nothing in the way of savings. she'll have to rely on social security, which may or may not exist by the time she retires, and her children, which i am more than willing to do.
living quite sparsely. for instance we, the kids, have to pay for the internet connection. i'm fine with that, because we're also the ones that use it most, but it takes quite a bit out of our budgets--we don't have allowances, and thus must work.
poor health benefits: i'm going to a shrink i detest. she's also the only option we have. we've changed dentists seven times in the last two years, twice because the dentist decided not to re-up with the insurance company.
oh, and this is with mom having 8 years of work in a suburban school system.
it's not enough money, flat out. sorry if you think so, but i have to disagree.
you try paying for a us$36k/yr education on a us$22k/yr salary.
granted, these aren't mass statistics, and it's "ancedotal evidence". but i'm telling you where i'm coming from here.

	18-09-2003 19:55									#84
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quote: Another big problem, one that you rarely hear anybody complain about, is the necessity for teachers to "teach for the test" rather than teaching for understanding.

I don't know if this is really a problem. The Japanese school system, generally acknowledged to be one of the best in the world, teaches to the test to a far greater extent than any American school I've seen. The problem may be with the tests themselves (not wide-ranging enough), rather than the teaching to said tests.

quote: Public boarding schools!

They have them here. A pretty bizarre system, actually.

quote: granted, these aren't mass statistics, and it's "ancedotal evidence". but i'm telling you where i'm coming from here.

It's very much anecdotal evidence. My mom teaches at a rural school district in Nebraska and she gets excellent health coverage. She also gets a salary which seems low as a total figure, but is actually pretty high when you figure it out on an hourly basis. Teachers get paid less because they don't work for a quarter of the year. Don't tell that to them, however; no surer way to get a teacher riled up.

	18-09-2003 19:58									#85
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: It's very much anecdotal evidence. My mom teaches at a rural school district in Nebraska and she gets excellent health coverage. She also gets a salary which seems low as a total figure, but is actually pretty high when you figure it out on an hourly basis. Teachers get paid less because they don't work for a quarter of the year. Don't tell that to them, however; no surer way to get a teacher riled up.

shoot, i should tell mom to move to rural nebraska. don't think she'll go for it, though.

	18-09-2003 19:59									#86
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quote: shoot, i should tell mom to move to rural nebraska. don't think she'll go for it, though.

She shouldn't. Living in rural Nebraska has a huge downside, namely having to live in rural Nebraska.

	18-09-2003 20:10									#87
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quote: She shouldn't. Living in rural Nebraska has a huge downside, namely having to live in rural Nebraska.

cost of living's lower, though. and then again, no matter which direction you drive out of atlanta, you'll eventually hit south georgia, so...

	18-09-2003 20:12									#88
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quote: and then again, no matter which direction you drive out of atlanta, you'll eventually hit south georgia, so...

I pity you.

	18-09-2003 20:23									#89
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Oerdin: so you want more money spent on students, but you want teacher salaries cut?

	18-09-2003 20:36									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Jaguar Warrior Don't worry, I have taken the liberty of doing it for you. First result of google search for "average US public school teacher salary" (search did not have quote marks.) http://www.teateachers.org/newsctr/2002/jul/04006.php

Yes, I did the same thing and the generally accepted average salary is about $43,000 not the +$50,000 Oerdin cited.