21-09-2003 01:14									#61
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quote: Just as if you agree with an organizations goals it's "apolitical" and "unbiased"?

Firstly, I don't much agree with their goals because they are too small-scale and too pragmatic. We need a more dynamic and wide scale solution that permeates the way we actually think. Failing that, terraforming!

I don't think theyre apolitical, or or unbiased of course, I think theyre not necessarily leftist or rightist. I also think that petty criminals, whatever their motivations is not necessarily terrorism. Terrorism is the principle of causing terror among the populus, not the FBI's definition of crime with a political motivation. The latter definition is oblique and unusable, as we all have an individual politic that is most likely the motivation behind any number of crimes. Was Robin Hood a terrorist or just a petty thug? A petty thug of course, in other words, Kevin Costner! . Indeed, the actual political motivation is irrelevant to whether a crime is terrorism or not. Needless to say, political convenience can get in the way of that.

	21-09-2003 03:21									#62
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Is it just me, or are there a lot of Oerdin threads around these days? There was at least 3 on the front page and another 6/7 on the second...

Now I'm scared...

	21-09-2003 05:12									#63
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I hadn't noticed, but I'm sure he's at or below the two per day limit, even if he was a REMF.

	21-09-2003 05:16									#64
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REMF?

	21-09-2003 05:18									#65
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Oerdin will know.

	21-09-2003 06:00									#66
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To answer your questions they are neither terrorists nor freedom fighters

They are LOSERS

	21-09-2003 08:02									#68
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Oerdin will know.

	21-09-2003 08:05									#69
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quote: Originally posted by elijah Is it just me, or are there a lot of Oerdin threads around these days? There was at least 3 on the front page and another 6/7 on the second... Now I'm scared...

BTW I got bored and hunted down a few of my old threads and just continued the discussion. I don't believe I actually made more then two threads in a 24 hour period.

	21-09-2003 13:37									#70
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CNN is now carrying this story.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/West/09/...e.ap/index.html

	21-09-2003 14:01									#71
	Re: Eco-terrorism Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin The Earth Liberation Front (ELF) is a radical leftist enviromental group who opposes any new construction by humans and who engages in arson and vandalism. In the last two years ELF has set fire to construction sites and recreational facities (such as a Sky Chalet in Wyoming) doing more then $100 million dollars in damages and the FBI has named ELF an Eco-terrorist organization. Why do I care? Because it seems there is an active ELF cell right here in San Diego where I live. Last night ELF set fire to six homes on two different construction sites in the San Diego area. This is on top of an August fire at a San Diego apartment complex under construction that caused $50 million in damage. This morning's damage could have been much worse except and we're lucky that nearby residents saw the fires right after they were set and called the Fire Department. So what is your take on this? Is ELF a terror organization or are they just valient protectors of the natural world? Is arson and vandalism justified or should we toss these fools in the slammer and throw away the key?

so did they prove that eco-terrorists are behind the apartment fires?

We have quite a few fires in Las Vegas of under devlopment sites. My city always has homes and apartments under construction everywhere.

We recently had a huge apartment complex go up in flames. Quite a sight that was.

I always blamed them on people who are against growth. I never thought eco-terrorists were responsible. I always figured it was some old coots who didn't like our nice little town turning into huge metropolis full of crime and minorities (the arsonists might be racists- I can't say)

	21-09-2003 14:03									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Ok, I can understand why these guys would want to burn ski lodges because they don't like people going into the woods and bothering all of the little furry creatures, I can also understand during down car dealerships which sell SUVs, I can even follow their twisted logic why they'd want burn down condos and houses since they're against urban sprawl (though the $50 million dollar condos they burned down two months ago in San Diego was a redevelopment project which didn't develop any new land). The one thing which I don't understand is why they'd burn down a US Navy recruiting center. How does that help furry little animals? Never the less earlier this year ELF claimed responsibility for burning down a Navy recruiting center in Montgomery, Alabama and for spray painting anti war slogans upon cars and nearby businesses. I can only think that these nutjobs are just idiot fringe leftists who like to burn things.

navy uses sea lions and dolphins. some of those whackos might be upset at that

	21-09-2003 14:51									#73
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quote: BTW I got bored and hunted down a few of my old threads and just continued the discussion. I don't believe I actually made more then two threads in a 24 hour period

Bumping en masse! Sounds like a plan

quote: To answer your questions they are neither terrorists nor freedom fighters They are LOSERS

Objectively, yes!

No matter how valid or potent the cause, I don't think that any ideology or opinion is worth violent expression. The problem for them as well is that they can turn people away from what they are supporting.

Lots of people won't take anti-capitalist protesters seriously, merely on the grounds that they smash stuff up (not that some of their views are ridiculous). Still, I personally don't link the two, I wont let the actions of a few fools taint an ideology, I'll examine it merely on those grounds. The anti-caps have many good points and I won't stop listening to them because of the violence of some believers.

	22-09-2003 08:46									#74
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc It goes well with the idiocy of the statement I was refering to. You've yet to state any meaningful reason why.

Again, total hot air with no susbstance.

	22-09-2003 08:48									#75
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Pot meet kettle.

	22-09-2003 08:53									#76
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat If it's a specific owner or tenant, on a specific piece of property, then no. If it's a general practice, or let's say part of a "keep our neighborhoods safe for our little white Aryan kids to play in" campaign, then it crosses the line.

The thing is, social or political issues can range from the very specific to extremely broad. For example, protecting an old building from redevelopment due to historical values can be one of these issues. Therefore, I found FBI's blanket definition silly, as you can pretty much label anybody or any organisation you don't like as "terrorist."

	22-09-2003 09:08									#77
	Re: Re: Eco-terrorism Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Dissident so did they prove that eco-terrorists are behind the apartment fires?

There were ELF slogans and leaflets left at each of the arson sights. I suppose someone could be trying to frame ELf but given ELF's recent attacks and the manufesto they have mailed to newspapers here in the west it seems to fit their modus opporandi to a tee.

	22-09-2003 20:45									#78
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quote: Originally posted by elijah REMF?

Rear-Entry Mother-F**ker?

	22-09-2003 21:17									#79
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Rear Escileon Mother F*cker. MtG is just mad because he was a bullet catcher in the infantry.

	22-09-2003 21:24									#80
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quote: Rear-Entry Mother-F**ker?

Too much!

Perhaps I should summarise my position (teehee). These groups are criminals, not terrorists, the only way they can be described as "leftist" is indirect at best, dubious at worse. Their ideology is fine and honourable, but they are discrediting it by committing these crimes. I think its good that one should try to protect the environment, but we do need a more fundamental shift in our thinking to forge a permanent solution. Unfortanately, for various reasons (elijah restrains his urge to hammer another nail into the coffin of conservatism), I don't see this happening, thus the human race is doomed to extinction unless we like live in space or something .

As a matter of interest, what's the problem that makes this so bad that eco criminals are given more attention than normal criminals who commit the same crime (and lets face it, its not exactly rare)? I'm thinking another excuse to launch one against the left (and knowing Oerdin I wouldn't put it past him), but for other people... is it the novelty of a traditionally cuddley ideology getting a nasty edge?

BTW: I have a class in a few minutes so I wont be able to respond until tomorrow (I'll be exhaused tonight), so don't think that I've abandoned my argument!

	22-09-2003 22:01									#81
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Elijah weren't you the one who was claiming Green Peace and the Sierra club were conservative (rightist) and not liberal (leftist) organizations?

	22-09-2003 22:20									#82
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Rear Echelon

	22-09-2003 22:55									#83
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well all the burnings in my city had no ELF or other slogans.

I think it's just kids, or old fogey's who are against our little town growing big. Or the workers of the construction site themselves burning it down because they hate the company they work for, or want more work.

So even though, we've had quite a few construction site fires, none are eco-terrorism that I know of.

	23-09-2003 02:04									#84
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quote: Elijah weren't you the one who was claiming Green Peace and the Sierra club were conservative (rightist) and not liberal (leftist) organizations?

No, I said they were conservative. Rightist means economic, where the influence of the environmental groups is indirect. This element of conservatism is separate from the right. You need to get away from the notion of left=liberal, right=conservative. Its a simple case of necessary and sufficient conditions (penguins and birds).

	23-09-2003 02:07									#85
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I'll stick with the real definitions thank you.

	23-09-2003 02:09									#86
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Read mine on the previous page, I'll think you'll agree that the distinctions are pretty clear for all to see.

	23-09-2003 02:11									#87
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The reason most ecological groups are leftist is that they are seeking new regulations in order to reduce pollution or human impact. As a general rule conservatives want less regulation and liberals want more regulation.

	23-09-2003 02:13									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin The reason most ecological groups are leftist is that they are seeking new regulations in order to reduce pollution or human impact. As a general rule conservatives want less regulation and liberals want more regulation.

I thought liberals wanted NO regulation.

	23-09-2003 02:24									#89
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But that is an indirect consequence. A determination of right vs left can only be made if the group has direct economic interests. If it was in capitalism's interest to preserve the environment, and that is increasingly becoming so, then the groups will inherently support capitalism. As such, their economic alliegiance, shall we say, are variable and not set in stone, indeed there are groups than are capitalist!! It is unfair to say they are thus leftist, and while this particular group you cite seems anti-cap, the actual ideology behind is not leftist. As such, that particular label, I suppose for political convenience, is unfair.

	23-09-2003 02:26									#90
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quote: I thought liberals wanted NO regulation

Yep!!! The word literally means libertarian. Of course, you get some who adopt most elements of libertarian liberalism but maintain elements of communism. Those are the stereotypical liberals that conservatives like to portray, because totalitarianism makes no sense