23-09-2003 02:31									#91
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Oerdin, I can see where elijah is coming from with this. The word conservative has meaning outside of the economic/political sense.

As for the arson itself, I see no mention of injury or death in the articles above, presumably because they all happened on building sites. What was the true chance of someone getting hurt? The fireman must know no-one would be on a building site at night, and so would have no need to enter any of the buildings. All that in mind the only repercusion of these attacks would be a financial one. Thats something I consider far far less serious than any of the other possible effects.

	23-09-2003 02:51									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Snotty As for the arson itself, I see no mention of injury or death in the articles above, presumably because they all happened on building sites.

Several hundred residents of a building next to the construction site were evacuated as heat from the blaze broke windows and melted plastic blinds in their homes.

There were also 3 construction workers sleeping on site at the time of the fire.

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=93772

	23-09-2003 02:54									#93
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Several hundred residents of a building next to the construction site were evacuated as heat from the blaze broke windows and melted plastic blinds in their homes. There were also 3 construction workers sleeping on site at the time of the fire. http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=93772

But still no injury or death.

	23-09-2003 02:57									#94
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quote: Originally posted by Osweld But still no injury or death.

Just reckless disregard for human life.

	23-09-2003 02:59									#95
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hmm. Its still not the same as deliberatly setting fires to hurt people. Of course they are going to evacuate the building next door, but Im sure they noticed before their blinds started melting!
Theres no way they could have known the workers were there, and why were they sleeping on site anyway? But they escaped anyway...

	23-09-2003 03:01									#96
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reckless disregard? hardly. Out of all these fires they have set, this is the only one with other people involved. Im sure the press would have jumped on ANY risk to human life and splashed it big.

	23-09-2003 03:02									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Snotty Theres no way they could have known the workers were there,

You give them more credit than I do. I don't think they cared one way or the other given the unpredictable nature of the weapon they use.

	23-09-2003 03:05									#98
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There is no sense at all for these elf guys to alienate the rest of the country by killing people. If they were the idiots you take them for then many many more of them would have been caught. These arent the actions of idiots, misguided though they actually be.

	23-09-2003 03:06									#99
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quote: ELF's slogan is "If you build it we will burn it" they have published manufestos in several eco-magazines in which they state their goal is to preserve wildlife and open spaces through violence if necisary. So as you see they are using violence to further political and/or social objectives and thus are a terrorist organization.

Bingo. This group is obviously a terrorist group. They use violence and terror in order to advance a political goal.

quote: hmm. Its still not the same as deliberatly setting fires to hurt people. Of course they are going to evacuate the building next door, but Im sure they noticed before their blinds started melting! Theres no way they could have known the workers were there, and why were they sleeping on site anyway? But they escaped anyway...

If anyone died in the fire, it would have been an open and shut case of Murder 2 (ie, the reckless disregard for life... yes, setting ANY fire is reckless disregard for life if someone dies).

	23-09-2003 03:06									#100
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quote: Originally posted by Snotty If they were the idiots you take them for then many many more of them would have been caught.

I never said nor meant to imply they were idiots.

	23-09-2003 03:08									#101
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ELF, ALF, and PETA should all be made illegal and we should be able to shoot them on sight. They are deadly organizations with no respect for human life, and are therefore a threat that should be treated with due force.

	23-09-2003 03:10									#102
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PETA? LOL

	23-09-2003 03:12									#103
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They claimed responsibility for the Chiron explosions a few weeks ago didn't they?

	23-09-2003 03:12									#104
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Sorry, what Im saying is only a fool would not have cared that workers were onsite, considering the damage it would do their cause.

quote: Bingo. This group is obviously a terrorist group. They use violence and terror in order to advance a political goal.

Wheres the terror in all this? these actions are not directed at civilians, their intent is not to strike fear into the hearts of the populos. Their intent is to cause financial damage to deter companys from building.

	23-09-2003 04:52									#105
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quote: Originally posted by Snotty There is no sense at all for these elf guys to alienate the rest of the country by killing people. If they were the idiots you take them for then many many more of them would have been caught. These arent the actions of idiots, misguided though they actually be.

There is a difference between technical ability and wisdom... they may have a lot of the former, but are severely lacking in the latter.

	23-09-2003 09:31									#106
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quote: these actions are not directed at civilians, their intent is not to strike fear into the hearts of the populos. Their intent is to cause financial damage to deter companys from building.

You don't think that some of these acts are directed at civilians? Destroying their SUVs, burning their houses? You don't think this is not to strike fear into the hearts of the people? Wouldn't you be scared of your new house being burned to the ground?

What says that all terrorism has to be intended to kill civilians? As long as the violence for political ends is not against the military, then it can be characterized as terrorism.

	23-09-2003 10:14									#107
	Re: Eco-terrorism Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Is arson and vandalism justified . . .?

This does not fit in with the concept of civil disobedience, so no, these actions are not justified.

	23-09-2003 12:12									#108
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui You don't think that some of these acts are directed at civilians? Destroying their SUVs, burning their houses? You don't think this is not to strike fear into the hearts of the people? Wouldn't you be scared of your new house being burned to the ground? What says that all terrorism has to be intended to kill civilians? As long as the violence for political ends is not against the military, then it can be characterized as terrorism.

As far as I read, the SUV burning was at a dealership, and the house burning was on development estates.In fact, as the estate was still being built, there were no people around. It wasnt as if you ran screaming as your new house was burnt. That just didnt happen here. At worst, the prospective owners would get a call saying what had happened and their money back.

New houses being burnt down is not going to stop people wanting to buy new houses, so therefore there is no point targeting the hearts of the people. You need to target the wallets of the building firms, and that is exactly what is happening here.

What says that all violence has to be terrorism? Whilst I agree that youve got the correct dictionary definition, the abuse of the word needs to end. In the minds of the people the word means something different and its far uglier than the 'political ends' definition. There was no intention to scare the population at large, care seems to have been taken to prevent loss of life, and it seems unfair to tar them with the same brush as the rest of the scum we have come to know the word by.

	24-09-2003 07:39									#109
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quote: There was no intention to scare the population at large

I totally disagree. There definetly was intent to scare the population at general. Its SUVs at a dealership today and houses being built. You don't think people in that area aren't scared? I doubt it.

I think these groups want people to be scared what will happen if they contract to build houses in former wildlife areas and scared what will happen to their SUVs.

quote: the abuse of the word needs to end. In the minds of the people the word means something different and its far uglier than the 'political ends' definition.

Yes the abuse of the word needs to end. Terrorism is violence for political ends. Blowing up civilians is one kind of terrorism, not the be all, end all.

	24-09-2003 16:39									#110
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We've had some arsons where I live, 4 yesterday, but those are propably due to the funny farm (madhouse?) located nearby.

On ecoterrorism, just yesterday, I think, some twerps let out some 5000 minks/sobels/ferrets (the cute ones you make furs from) of a fur farm. They have no way of surviving in the wild, and some actually die of shock as they are released, thus the EVR (ALF) or whoever is behind it ends up causing more suffering to them than the farmer.

Beware of stupid people in large groups. And behind a Cause.

	24-09-2003 18:16									#111
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It would appear that a consensus of reasonable opinion is emerging...

Violence and criminal activities like this is unacceptable, no matter how potent or valid or cute the cause. As we are not debating so much the policies of that group, am I to understand that we all concur with the environmentalist agenda? Would seem to be a reasonable proposition, though I suppose we would differ on how to achieve this, but the scientitic community seems to concur that we cannot go on as we are. A further debate is whether such crime is terrorism. According to the FBI's definition it is, but then that's hardly a definition we can regard as objective or without political motivation. A more generic, consistent definition would hold that it is not, but again, this is up for debate. A reasonable summary?

	24-09-2003 19:24									#112
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Surprisingly, yes.

	25-09-2003 01:49									#113
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Wow! Someone likes one of my summaries!!