21-09-2003 10:44									#1
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Okay, there was a thread on this topic in another forum, but the general educational background on that board is almost non-existant so it became a flamefest pretty quick. Its an interesting subject and I'm interested in what poly posters have to say on this topic (which means Im counting on you guys to do a better job than the other forum ).

I think the original question was "Why do human beings consider themselves more important than other species?"

	21-09-2003 10:47									#2
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Because we're smarter and no other animal makes us it's ready prey - at least, not for long. Reading. Writing. Civilization. Because the anwer is so self-evident that the question is kind of silly.

That sort of thing.

	21-09-2003 10:52									#3
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So then value of life has hierachy based on intellectual capacity, ranking in the food chain, ability to create culture/civilization?

So does such hierachy exist within human lives as well?

	21-09-2003 12:06									#4
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Conciousness, a quality no other species on earth has.

	21-09-2003 12:12									#5
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You think we're bad. Just look at kitty cats.

	21-09-2003 12:19									#6
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because we can (be so important)

'nuff said really.

	21-09-2003 13:07									#7
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Zero has asked an interesting question. If we differentiate ourselves from other animal life due to our capacity to reason, position at the top of the food chain, and abiltiy to create advanced cultures then wouldn't that same logic apply with in the human species?

That said I really don't think we are inherently superior to other life though we are set apart due to our ability to reason. Ants, Monkeys, dolphins and others form social groups which look after each other and some animals such as whales have been have their own primative "languages" with which they convey simple messages between each other like food, danger, pain, play time, etc.

In the end we aren't really all that different from other life except that our own abilities are slightly more advanced then other species but they also contain the seeds of everything which makes use different.

	21-09-2003 13:08									#8
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I have a feeling this thread is going to quickly become a debate about Social Darwinism.

	21-09-2003 20:51									#9
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Because we have the tools and we have the talent.

It's Miller time.

	21-09-2003 20:53									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Zero I think the original question was "Why do human beings consider themselves more important than other species?"

I rather think we consider us important while the rest doesn´t really consider anything

	21-09-2003 20:54									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Zero I think the original question was "Why do human beings consider themselves more important than other species?"

Stupidity.

	21-09-2003 20:55									#12
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the answer is because Cats know they have it better by treating us like mugs.

	21-09-2003 21:07									#13
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Humans may have better ability to reason and use tools (which let's be honest isn't always a benefit), but does that mean that we are more advanced than other species? I personally don't think so. It really is a matter of Darwinism, species have adapted to their specific needs.

We are more advanced thinkers, Dolphins are more advanced swimmers, chameleons are more advanced hiders etc.

	21-09-2003 21:15									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Buck Birdseed Conciousness, a quality no other species on earth has.

Prove that, please.

As to the original question, I think it ties in with the erroneous notion that there is somehow a direction of evolution and that we are the evolutionary pinnacle, so to speak, of the current world.

This is not true in an absolute sense, of course, since evolution has no direction nor any intended goal.

It's a purely subjective value we place on our species. In our current environment, we're king **** of **** mountain. That could change, however, and we could end up going the way of the dodo.

I'd like to suggest that all species have an ingrained sense of speciesism, so it's probably a mindset that is somewhat evolutionary in its origin. Keeping to one's own kind is a valuable trait for survival in nature, so an inbred notion of your own species being superior to all others could be of benefit.

	21-09-2003 21:16									#15
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Humans think that humans are important because they are humans.

	21-09-2003 21:16									#16
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Other species are conscious and are able to respond to outside stimulous. I think reason more then simple consciousness is what makes us different.

	21-09-2003 21:18									#17
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The ability for abstract thought is what I would say is the key delineation.

	21-09-2003 21:30									#18
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quote: Originally posted by centrifuge Humans may have better ability to reason and use tools (which let's be honest isn't always a benefit), but does that mean that we are more advanced than other species? I personally don't think so. It really is a matter of Darwinism, species have adapted to their specific needs. We are more advanced thinkers, Dolphins are more advanced swimmers, chameleons are more advanced hiders etc.

But advanced thinking is the trump card. With that, you can top all the others. Yeah, dolphins swim better in their natural state. So we think of ways to swim better and now our submarines, cruise ships, and deep-sea crafts go faster, deeper, and for longer than any dolphin. Birds fly better naturally, so we think of ways to fly better and now we fly higher and faster than any bird.

We're the only species to ever get from planet Earth into space and in the long term, that's the only thing that counts. Dolphins can swim and chameleons can hide but when the Big Mamma of Space Rocks eventually heads our way, we're the ones that can get off this planet of rapidly falling property values and somewhere safer.

	21-09-2003 21:34									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Other species are conscious and are able to respond to outside stimulous.

Does that define consciousness? I mean animals are driven by instinct - human consciousness includes a bit more than that.

I think "consider" in the sense of "thinking about" is something that simply doesn´t fit for animals. Yeah maybe there some exceptions - chimps, dolphins (not sure), but in general.

	21-09-2003 21:38									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Zero So then value of life has hierachy based on intellectual capacity, ranking in the food chain, ability to create culture/civilization? So does such hierachy exist within human lives as well?

No, I'm saying that there are essentially two groups out there: humans and animals. Animals are able to do very many different things, from flying to making war to forming social organizations to working together to achieve a common goal to tool making and using, but only humans can do all of that. Our mastery and refinement of what every other animal has to offer makes us unique.

In answer to your second question, I would say yes. People who live within a civilization and curb their biological instincts for the betterment of society are
higher on the hierarchy than people who don't. Imho, it doesn't matter if the civilization is Aztecian, Chinese, Indian, Polynesian, Ghandian, Western... as long as you are building some sort of civilized society, you are defining yourself as not an animal.

	21-09-2003 22:12									#21
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I'm not really comfortable seperating us from animals just because we are humans. We are certainly unique, but Im having hard time seeing a seperate two group that exists. Humans and animals.

okay, but a problem rises in defining what a civilization is.

Just how much achievement is required for a group of living organism to be a civilization? And also, if an organism is unable to create complex order out of groups due to biological handicaps, arent you essentially saying we are superior due to our physiology?

	21-09-2003 22:18									#22
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"Just how much achievement is required for a group of living organism to be a civilization? "

Well, you don't need much. I would say that one of the things that is required are referencable, historical records, which is a trademark of all civilizations and no animals. The Sumerians achieved it, while the dolphins and the chimps have not.

	21-09-2003 22:20									#23
	Re: What makes us so important Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Zero "Why do human beings consider themselves more important than other species?"

Because we can ask that question.

	21-09-2003 22:21									#24
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT "Just how much achievement is required for a group of living organism to be a civilization? " I would say that one of the things that is required are referencable, historical records, which is a trademark of all civilizations and no animals.

Are you including oral histories in that?

	21-09-2003 22:22									#25
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT I would say that one of the things that is required are referencable, historical records, which is a trademark of all civilizations and no animals.

I can't agree with this. So if a people organize themselves into a complex society but don't develop written records, they aren't a civilization? This doesn't bode well for Mesoamerican cultures...

	21-09-2003 22:22									#26
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I would even include the paintings in those French caves.....

edit: uvil spollink

	21-09-2003 22:22									#27
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Oh please, stop pretending there's some higher reason for our arrogance and self importance. If you took a human brain and put it in a beaver's body, it'd start thinking that beaver's are the most important thing in the world. (And hey, beaver's might already think that anyways)

	21-09-2003 22:25									#28
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Some cultures don't believe that humans are so great, so it's not universal.

My guess is that some human beings started thinking they were so great when we mastered the use of fire. All of this complex society and abstract reasoning stuff comes a lot later.

	21-09-2003 22:32									#29
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The more you can destroy the more advanced you are. We're definetely #1 in that.

	21-09-2003 22:37									#30
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Okay so after enough attempts to get some talking going, here what I thought of the question.

1. Humans think they are important well, because they're humans. All organism's show tendency to promote their genetic packages into the next generation of living things, so obviously considering the life of one that has genetic similaririty must be linked with this kind of behavior. This applies at any level (kingdom, phylum, genus species, race, families etc.)

2. Life DOES HAVE hierarchy. But this hierachy depends on process of evolution. Meaning, hierachy is not static and weighs intellectual capacity, rank of food chain, enviornment etc. But like I've said before, this raises a question about same law applying within the species. And I'm willing to accept that. Unfortunately I'm aware that this raises an issue of racism.

3. So to me, there isnt humans... then animals. We are part of the same group, but we are merely in a really high position in the hierarchy of life due to our current situation. I don't view humans as anything extra ordinary enough to give its own classification on life.