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Flubber
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With a view of the Rockies
Aug 2000
time: 22:31
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Having met 4 factions, diplomacy will be busy -- There has been a lot of commentary in various threads but I wanted to combined the discussion here with all the pending deals
Drones -- just met them-- EDIT-- welcoming message sent offering treaty and possibility of trade.
Hive -- offered any 2 of app physics, doc loyalty or biogenetics fro doc flex -- we refused at this time
-- they then offered app physics for doc mob-- trade is pending a decision
PUT-- offered eth calc for doc flex-- I refused it thinking we could get eth calc from the cyco and asked for genesplicing-- They have now offered SOTHB-- response pending
Cycon-- they owe us a level 2 tech from previous dealings. . . they want doc flex for a future tech to be named later or 80 ec. Their position is that both AI have this tech so the price should be cheap
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I think the doc flex cat is out of the bag and with us finding the drones in a unity foil . . . its even more important to trade.
I propose I immediately do the following
1. Welcome the drones and offer trades and treaty
2. Call the put back and say that the situation has changed and we wish to get eth calc from them-- straight trade.
3. Accept the cycons tech for tech deal but with the condition that they must switch into techs we do not have until we are paid back the techs we are owed. The mortgage on flex applies until we are paid back
4. accept the Hives offer of doc loyalty and app physics-- do this one in a turn or two so as to coincide with any trades with the drones. NO policy for 5 years
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The idea here is that we have just made a discovery so none of this will affect our tech rate for quite some time. WE will garner at LEAST 4 techs for doc flex plus whatever I can garner from the drones. WE will also have a couple of techs -- for trade bait to get a few more trades in before the meetings start happening. happen
Last edited by Flubber on 22-09-2003 at 01:57
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Flubber
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With a view of the Rockies
Aug 2000
time: 22:31
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PUT--- GOOD -- I propose we make the trade with the PUT-- timing to be determined
DRones-- mongoose indicated he is no longer acting as ambassador and has forwarded my message to buster
Maniac-- I sent a message inquiring if doc flex for nonlin would be possible-- I presented it as tech for tech and having no effect on the owed tech from the ind auto deal. I also indicated that doc flex should go to them the turn before they would discover it so we could get our tech back immediately, avoiding any questions of valuing getting a tech earlier.
Hive -- no further contacts-- there offer seemed to be a standing one and it would take the cycon and put time to find them anyway
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johndmuller
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Capitol Hill, Colony of DC
Feb 2001
time: 00:31
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Trading Doc:Flex for Ethical Calc with the PUT is fine with me; I presume that there will be some attempt to embargo its retrading, whether by just asking for it, offering a similar embargo on the EthCalc, paying something extra (like 20 PoE), agreeing to a Pact, or whatever. So far, they seem to be much more reasonable about things than our supposed buddies, the Borg; so I wouldn't really be disappointed if improved relations with the PUT soured our relations with the Borg (we are not, after all, under any obligation with the Borg to dislike the PUT), as they do not seem to me to be doing all that well anyway, making them not so great an ally. If we don't pact with the PUT, we should probably infiltrate them next, if for no other reason than to know for sure how well they are doing.
It will be interesting to see if the Borg are willing to do the NonLinear.
WE NEED TO WORRY ABOUT (DEFENSIVE) PROBES.
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Flubber
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With a view of the Rockies
Aug 2000
time: 22:31
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quote:
Originally posted by johndmuller
WE NEED TO WORRY ABOUT (DEFENSIVE) PROBES. |
I agree-- an infantry probe in every base or our tech lead won't be worth crap-- its hard to defend seabases against proberape but we should be scouting aggressively and have a minimum one defender in each base-- The upside is that they will need to hide numerous probeships to proberape us and those will be expensive-- I am thinking about a thread on some sort of SEafarers code in the general forum. In general, I don't want a probeship within 4 tiles of any of our bases and we will send any such probes home.
As for retrading . . . I had hoped to trade the crap out of doc flex ASAP anyway-- it would take the UNiversity a turn to build a boat and then at least 4 or 5 to find anyone that doesn't already have the tech.
With BOTH AI's having the tech I don't see much point in delaying the trading much further. The we should soon be selling commlinks-- I'm thinking of offering to sell the cycon and the PUT each others commlinks-- hoping to get paid twice for it-- I would hold off on the Hive/drone links for a while but I do want to get in ahead of them meeting each other
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Flubber
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With a view of the Rockies
Aug 2000
time: 22:31
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quote:
Originally posted by foolish_icarus
concerning the commlinks- Do we want to hold out on trading them in the hopes that we can gain a planetary governor nomination, or do we write that off and get what we can for the comms before the other facs meet? |
With our current 4th place standing, an inability to pull an easy pop boom, and the Hive rapidly growing, I highly doubt we will be a candidate in the first round of governor voting . .. . The drones have a unity foil and two factions already have doc flex so the election will be called within 15 years IMHO-- I can't realistically see how we will be in governorship range unless we manage a major conquest in that time ( not possible)
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Flubber
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With a view of the Rockies
Aug 2000
time: 22:31
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Latest news
The cycon will give us HEC as their next discovery if we give them DOC FLEX immediately. They did not want to get nonlinear for us. They are still offering to sell it for 80 or 90 ec but again it must be immediate.
They seem to be impatient and have indicated that doc flex pre-accepted on their next turn is a necessary condition of any deal. Other wise they say they will buy doc flex from the AI.
I expressed dismay at this position and stated I would seek instructions.
personally I see two choices
1. tell them to buzz off-- we are tired of their unbalanced dealings-- result: we get nothing from doc flex from them but they still do owe us a tech-- I believe they will go for eth calc if they are not bound otherwise
2. Make the cash deal and tie that into them going for HEC to complete the old deal
Although my total frustration with them makes me like the idea of option 1, they probably will get Doc flex from the AI this turn anyway so we might as well trade to them and get something back.
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Hercules
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in Tir Na Og
Sep 2002
time: 05:31
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Regretably I am inclined to agree with going for a variation of option 2, I prefer a tech back later, rather than 80 ecs now. Which I suppose is their original offer.
But have they accepted the 5 year no trade Doc:Flex deal. If no, then we might want to reconsider.
I asked before, will the AI trade with them. They(Cycon) indicated they didn't before because they didn't have the ecs. Now they do have the ecs. So? What's the odds on the AI trading.
If it comes to it I prefer delivering the tech by trading for HEC, this will also make them speed up to get rid of their obligation.
How important is getting HEC to us, in a specific timeframe.
Last edited by Hercules on 24-09-2003 at 04:10
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johndmuller
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Capitol Hill, Colony of DC
Feb 2001
time: 00:31
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Are you saying that they want the Doc:Flex now and will give us the HEC in 5 years or whenever (no deadline?), plus still owe us a tech and with nothing binding on them for that delivery either? That would be 10 or 15 years more float for the payoff on the IndAuto deal as well as the 5 plus years float they want on this one - that's well over 20 years of float (counting what they've already had). Surely they are not that intractable - or are they playing the Suicide Pact role over there.
If there is anything still on the table from them to make it less odious, please fill us in.
If that's it, I'm also P!$$ed off and leaning toward letting them get Doc:Flex however the &*$&# they can and cutting our losses to just the remainder of the float from the IndAuto. OTOH, being able to direct their research to anything, even HEC (rather than our suggestion of NonLinear), would be helpful in the global context, as you say they will otherwise (redundantly) research EhicalCalc, wasting the research points; unfortunately, we only collectively gain from avoiding redundancy, not we Pirates specifically. If they research EthicalCalc after getting Flex (whether from us or from the AI) and we have meanwhile decided to get the EthCalc from the PUT, then our IndAuto payback would be further postponed - In that case, I would be in favor of just stealing techs from them whenever possible for the rest of the game rather than attempting to work with them in the trade market.
I think you should probably start a poll or polls, setting forth whatever options you think are possible for trading and whatever alternative actions you see.
I'm not sure that I have all the details of the various trade possibilities with the other factions, but I think you said we can get AppPhys and Loyalty from the Hive and EthicalCalc from the PUT. Presumably we can get something useful from the Drones too. It is true, is it not, that the Borg do not have contact with any of the other human factions?
Just so we can figure the big picture, could you set out the possible deals with all the factions here in one post.
Presumably you can stall the Borg at least another of their turns, while we decide what to do. If they wish, are able and actually do make the deal with the AI before then, so be it, it will only be another insulting gesture and what's one more insulting gesture among such friends. Meanwhile, we can check with the other factions and/or figure out what we want to do with the Borg. Perhaps we could bribe Roze &/or Miriam to be their enemies, scotching their deals and also giving them something else to worry about.
We seem to be heading for a confrontation with the Borg, let's keep that in mind in our builds and plans; I was only half kidding in my post about splitting them up with the PUT.
Last edited by johndmuller on 24-09-2003 at 04:10
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Flubber
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With a view of the Rockies
Aug 2000
time: 22:31
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They have always accepted a mortgage on the tech until it is paid for . . . years no trade would probably be irrelevant given that they would take that long to meet anyone most likely anyway
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Flubber
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With a view of the Rockies
Aug 2000
time: 22:31
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Johnd
all the possible trades are in the first post in this thread
The cycon are adamant that if we want a tech we will have to live with one later with no other compensation. They seem certain they can buy doc flex next turn and seem to not want ANY more stalling. I indicated that this form of tech trade is unfair but they seem not to care at all ( at least maniac doesn't). His position is that he can buy it cheap so we have no bargaining power. There seems to be no concern for future relations.
They are offering a tech now if we want one they already have but thats just app physics and biogen IIRC . . .and we should be able to pick those up cheap anytime or simply just bypass them.
I have been tempted to tell them to buzz off but I would rather get the ecs for ourselves than see them go to the AI-- I asked a point of clarification in that if we sold doc flex would they head immediately to HEC on the tech switch. That way we get energy credits and HEC in abouout 5 or 6 and then no longer have an indefinite obligation floating out there.
AS to general cycon relations, I find them impossible and have sent a preliminary unofficial message to the UNiversity inquiring if they would favor a pact. The idea is that if their ambassador has any interest, weoll our respective memberships . . . WE could start thinking about making them our foremost allies .
I think it remains marginally in our interest to do this deal-- Bottom line is that I believe they could most likely get flex from the AI-- BUT no favors for them ever-- strictly TOTAL self interest from now on-- IF we can screw them to the wall we do so
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Flubber
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With a view of the Rockies
Aug 2000
time: 22:31
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Maniac indicates a favorable view to the ec for doc flex-- ( I would ask 90 since he said 80 or 90) with them choosing HEC as their next research target to pay us back from the prior deal
OUr options
1. tell them to bug off-- I have no leverage to force what they research to pay us back from the prior deal
2. Give doc flex now for HEC(in about 6 turns) and still have them owe us a tech
3. Accept ecs for doc flex and get HEC ( in about 6 turns)
The tone of the most recent maniac message was much more conciliatory although their position did not soften. At least he is trying to be diplomatic now-- His arguments have some merit
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Flubber
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With a view of the Rockies
Aug 2000
time: 22:31
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UPDATE the university has approved doc flex for eth calc and we can trade at our convenience-- I leave it to the operations fols as to when that is-- we could delay a turn I guess but then I would feel I have to give a reason if we delayed further
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Flubber
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With a view of the Rockies
Aug 2000
time: 22:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Makahlua
Wait a minute. We -do- have leverage.....the Pact itself! You could tell them that we feel they are not living up to the spirit of our Pact, even while obeying it's letter, and that we feel their rather mercenary and undermining attitude is making us think seriously on wether this pact is such a good thing after all.
Too belligerent? |
I have done that very type of thing. What they say back is that if we are friends to them, we
a) wouldn't mind giving them Doc flex now so they can get a navy going even if they can't pay a tech back for a few turns and
b) we should sell them doc flex for a little less than the AI would sell it
I have mentioned good relations and that we have felt hard done by in the previous trades. They indicate that they feel we won both those trades and they are determined not to pay any more than market price for doc flex ( ie what the AI will sell it for).
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Flubber
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With a view of the Rockies
Aug 2000
time: 22:31
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WE lost internet access at work so I had no idea the turn had come around and was unable to respond.
The deals offered were pretty clear . . .
The 75 POE was offered
a) as the first part of 90 they were willing to spend on doc flex OR
b) to be loaned to us until they could repay us by completing HEC if we wnated a tech for flex
If we lose the deal, I take some responsibility since I was not online but at the same time, the poll results were available and the deal offered was pretty clear. I don't see any problem with the turn player looking at those things and completing the approved deal even in the ansence of my immediate feedback
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21-09-2003 22:56
. (My guess is the Borg, BTW; do I get a prize?)
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