23-09-2003 21:37									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola What is your opinion of old folks who have the money, power, and other rescources to do you over royally, should the fancy take them?

	23-09-2003 22:04									#62
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I like all sorts of people . . .

My grandfather is 84 and still very sharp-- He can discuss current events and debate with the best of them-- He doesn't know pop music or much about computers but he has a wealth of experience from which ANYONE could learn.

I know a few teens. Some are incredibly tied up in computers and pop culture and don't seem interested in much else. Fair enough, there's nothing wrong with the fact that we gave nothing in common. But others are interested in local and national events. These teens have zip in experience but they can often look at something with fresh eyes.

A good discussion is a good discussion no matter how old the other party happens to be.


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I understand the argument that many younger people are making today. They see governmnets hoist the idea of "user pays" in a whole host of areas that were largely government funded. Taxes are being cut which helps the established workforce while students face crushing tuition increases. They see their parents pulling in good incomes from their government subsidized educations but denying the same levels of funding to them. With pensions, the perception is that our parents paid far to little into the plans to maintain them and the current workfprce is being required to pay increased premiums to fund the previous generation that paid in too little.

While I respect what previous generations have done, including sacrifices in wartime, this issue is not about respect . . . its mainly about the population bulge of the babyboomers implementing policies which usually benerfit mainly BABYBOOMERS . .

	23-09-2003 22:33									#63
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You can hate us old people all you want, but you better respect us only for the reason that we are closer to death and have no fear.I will snuff out a young punk in a heartbeat.

REMEMBER:Old people don't fear DEATH,Do You?

	23-09-2003 22:40									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber its mainly about the population bulge of the babyboomers implementing policies which usually benerfit mainly BABYBOOMERS . .

When your generation is in the majority, I'm sure it too will implement policies that benefit themselves. It's hard to imagine a majority implementing policies that will harm themselves.

Democracies are seldom about fairness. It's all politics.

	23-09-2003 23:10									#65
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This is one of the problems that we have. Young people refusing to give their elders the respect they have earned. Old people have lot of wisdom to hand down if you take the time listen to them. That way you dont have to learn the hard way.

	23-09-2003 23:33									#66
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Yeah, I would love to be able to send back a few messages to my younger self. But then again, my younger self would have probably said "ah, what does that old fart know" and ignored it.

	23-09-2003 23:45									#67
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Older people are cool.

	24-09-2003 00:06									#68
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Older people are cool.

Because they'll be dead by the time your "revolution" comes around?

	24-09-2003 07:51									#69
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Cool, not cold.

	24-09-2003 07:56									#70
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I don't like old people either.

	24-09-2003 08:11									#71
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Daniel,

quote: Their state payed pensions should be reduced to social welfare level.

Why should they get anything at all? It's my money.

duke,

quote: You really don't understand how state pensions work do you? You have to accept that you are paying for the pensions of the retired people while you are at work, but that the generations below you will be paying your pension when you reach retirement age.

If this is how it was supposed to work from the beginning, then I have to wonder why it was set up in such a horribly inefficient manner. Let's try out a novel idea here. The point of Social Security programs is to ensure that older citizens can survive retirement. Great. Now I have a suggestion. If this system must be set up, why not simply dump each person's money into an individual account for that individual, payable upon retirement? This ensures that no one is being forced to pay for anyone else.

Of course, this then leads me to ask wby we should be forcing this type of system on people in the first place, given that these people can, AT THE VERY LEAST, accumulate interest on their money in actual bank accounts (not to mention help stimulate the economy through the workings of the banking system). Some people may choose not to save, but why should that be anyone's problem but their own? So a few old people starve to death - gee, I might be concerned if it wasn't their own damn fault. But I don't shed too many tears for stupidity and incompetence. I have a phrase for this, though: Natural Selection.

quote: Isn't it a good thing that everyone else who came before you in history didn't share your views? etc.

That's funny, I wasn't aware that the person who invented the TV was forced to give it away for free. Oh, right, he wasn't.

DAVOUT,

quote: The collective pension (paid by the state or any other collective organization) system was invented to obliged people selfish or lacking of foresight to provide for the pension funds and doing so to earn their right to receive a pension when their turn arrives.

So, basically, the pension system was put into place to help ensure the survival of stupid people, right?

Somehow I just can't see how the government should have anything to do with private decisions about saving for one's own retirement.

quote: Under a purely individual pension scheme based on individual savings, there will be a significant portion of the population preferring not to save with the end result of becoming a burden for the society which will have to give them anyway a minimum income to live; this will be paid by the active citizens through taxes.

Why is this the end result? This is the only end result if you assume that I have a responsibility for someone else's stupidity.

No, the end result is - or at least should be - these old people being forced to rely on family and charity, and, ultimately, possibly even paying for their poor decisions by dying. They could have acted to prevent it, but their failure to act in their own interest doesn't automatically grant them a claim to my property. How could it?

quote: In all cases, the active citizens pay for the not active:

Why shouldn't the active citizens save money to pay for themselves when they are inactive? Oh, you claim that many people are too stupid to do this? Yeah, you're probably right. And I can't hammer this point in hard enough. Stupidity. Stupidity. Stupidity. Not my problem. Not my problem. Not my problem. In the end, I don't give a **** if someone saves for their retirement or not - but if they choose not to, they better not try to lay a claim to MY money that I want to wisely save for MY retirement. And why do I want to do this? That's right, should be evident by now - unlike these other people, I'm not STUPID.

Rah,

quote: When your generation is in the majority, I'm sure it too will implement policies that benefit themselves. It's hard to imagine a majority implementing policies that will harm themselves. Democracies are seldom about fairness. It's all politics.

Then I have a solution. Get rid of democracy.

	24-09-2003 08:13									#72
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Down with democracy

	24-09-2003 08:27									#73
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quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT I came here to hear young people from everywhere, and occasionnally to discuss with them. I am not desappointed. BTW I am the only true old guy on this forum (64).

Well I'm not the oldest anymore, thank you.

Joseph

March 28, 1944

	24-09-2003 08:41									#74
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quote: Originally posted by FrustratedPoet That sounds like you're describing a pet.

Actually, that's about right.

I talk to many of the people with dimentia like I would a pet. They seriously seem to prefer it, otherwise they get lost in the sea of words.

	24-09-2003 12:13									#75
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd I have a phrase for this, though: Natural Selection.

Surely this phrase is irrelevant considering they have already bred?

	24-09-2003 13:34									#76
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David Floyd

quote: Why should they get anything at all? It's my money.

I have no problem giving away social welfware money. If you are poor, and cant get a job its the only solution to survive besides crime. I believe small figures crime would increase dramaticly if we would abolish social welfare. Keeping social welfare is cheaper than having to pay for all those police, trials, prisons, etc. (not to speak of all those personal dramas...)
But social welfare should be reduced to a more reasonable amount (cut it too 1/2, remove all extras).

State payed pensions in contrast are way to high. You can give them some credit that those folks payed in the system themselves. But the System is faulty. Dont see why our generation should bear all the burden of that faulty system (pay full, get nothing). Instead both should bear some of the burden. Those old ppl. should get social welfare by todays standards (2times the money I would give to normal ppl.), payed by the workforce of today. That would be about 1/3 they get by now.

So you see Im not for all out libertarianism, Im for a more pragmatic approach. (which is still too radical to be implemented in todays germany anyways..)

	24-09-2003 14:39									#77
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Mr Floyd, would you care to tell us how much you are currently paying into your pension fund?

	24-09-2003 15:42									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber I like all sorts of people . . . My grandfather is 84 and still very sharp-- He can discuss current events and debate with the best of them-- He doesn't know pop music or much about computers but he has a wealth of experience from which ANYONE could learn. I know a few teens. Some are incredibly tied up in computers and pop culture and don't seem interested in much else. Fair enough, there's nothing wrong with the fact that we gave nothing in common. But others are interested in local and national events. These teens have zip in experience but they can often look at something with fresh eyes. A good discussion is a good discussion no matter how old the other party happens to be. PAYING A FAIR SHARE I understand the argument that many younger people are making today. They see governmnets hoist the idea of "user pays" in a whole host of areas that were largely government funded. Taxes are being cut which helps the established workforce while students face crushing tuition increases. They see their parents pulling in good incomes from their government subsidized educations but denying the same levels of funding to them. With pensions, the perception is that our parents paid far to little into the plans to maintain them and the current workfprce is being required to pay increased premiums to fund the previous generation that paid in too little. While I respect what previous generations have done, including sacrifices in wartime, this issue is not about respect . . . its mainly about the population bulge of the babyboomers implementing policies which usually benerfit mainly BABYBOOMERS . .

Great post all the way around. There is a terrible degree of inequity in how much each of the generations has paid for the benefits they have received from the government. I'd like to see a real pension system replace our social security system, so that you are actually saving your own money for your own pension. Of course some will be bled off to pay for the indigent etc., but the fairness of such a system as well as its robustness seems to go without saying. It avoids some of the problems that the current system has in regards to demographic changes in society.

	24-09-2003 15:44									#79
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quote: Originally posted by rah When your generation is in the majority, I'm sure it too will implement policies that benefit themselves. It's hard to imagine a majority implementing policies that will harm themselves. Democracies are seldom about fairness. It's all politics.

No generation is a majority, it's all about getting a group of generations to work together to steal everything back from the boomers.

	24-09-2003 16:00									#80
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I don't like people. Except fried ones, muahaha.

Last edited by Tattila the Hun on 24-09-2003 at 16:18

	24-09-2003 16:16									#81
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quote: Mr Floyd, would you care to tell us how much you are currently paying into your pension fund?

Certainly. I have an IRA account that I put money into every month. On top of this, I work full time, and because of my lack of free time I can't reasonably spend all of my money, so I save what I can from each paycheck, as well.

Daniel,

As to crime increasing without welfare, if this happens then we should simply lock up those who commit crime.

	24-09-2003 16:17									#82
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Oh, and I have also have minor stock options.

	24-09-2003 16:31									#83
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@ David

My point is, its cheaper to pay welfare than the additional prison/police/trials costs would be.

	24-09-2003 20:48									#84
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David Floyd, I am under the impression that you do not see how the active people ultimately pay for the inactive whatever is the system.

Let assume that all people save enough to sustain a reasonable standard of living when they retire, and that there is no other pension scheme. When they retire they will get a return on their investments under the form of rents (paid by people or corporations), interests (paid directly or indirectly by individual borrowers and corporations and the state) and dividends (paid by corporations).

Everything paid by the corporations is ultimately charged to the individuals, and the interests paid by the state are charged to individuals and corporations through taxes. So, all the retirees income comes ultimately from the people. People able to pay are either active or retired, but rents and interests are in vast majority paid by active people (you are not inclined to borrow when you retire, and generally you own your house). Rents, interests, taxes and dividends paid by the corporations are included in the prices paid by consumers, that are active people and retired people, but again the consumption of young active and inactive people exceeds by far the consumption of retirees.

I hope you see that in a system without collective pension scheme or pensions paid by the state, nevertheless the active people bear the cost of the retirees income ,… but they feel better because they ignore it. You can see also that if you replace the saving effort by an equivalent amount paid to a collective pension scheme, you do not reduce your standard of living.

The main issue is less about the system that about the demography. But it could be made still worse by *details* like the foreign US debt which results in having the US tax payers funding the Japanese and Chinese pensions.

	24-09-2003 21:00									#85
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DAVOUT

I think David Floyd's anger is not direct at old people that didn't save, but at the ill-managed social security pension program here in the US...

When we, younger folk, put money away in 401k, 401b, roth IRAs, ect. it is non-taxable money that we manage and we control. The money gets invested into funds, stocks, bonds, that eventually benefit the economy and buisness that will pay taxes to cover such things as the current social security programs, welfare, unemployment, and disability. On top of this, we pay personal taxes that also go to benefit these things, as well as Social Security...

It is not so much that we mind financing retirees, it is just that I don't like financing them twice or three times over due to poor management by the government. Who, took their money and gave to China, N. Korea, and Iraq...

Selfish? Yeah. But I don't want to rely on the US government, or any government for that matter, to pay my pention...

	24-09-2003 21:26									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Japher DAVOUT I think David Floyd's anger is not direct at old people that didn't save, but at the ill-managed social security pension program here in the US... When we, younger folk, put money away in 401k, 401b, roth IRAs, ect. it is non-taxable money that we manage and we control. The money gets invested into funds, stocks, bonds, that eventually benefit the economy and buisness that will pay taxes to cover such things as the current social security programs, welfare, unemployment, and disability. On top of this, we pay personal taxes that also go to benefit these things, as well as Social Security... It is not so much that we mind financing retirees, it is just that I don't like financing them twice or three times over due to poor management by the government. Who, took their money and gave to China, N. Korea, and Iraq... Selfish? Yeah. But I don't want to rely on the US government, or any government for that matter, to pay my pention...

I can appreciate your concern about the management of the Social Security; we suffer the same trouble here. But it is also important to consider that managing your own savings over fourty years is not without risk (mainly inflation, cracks and crooks). Most ordinary people are not able to afford this risk, and for them a collective scheme is a guarantee not to loose everything.

	24-09-2003 21:33									#87
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quote: I can appreciate your concern about the management of the Social Security; we suffer the same trouble here. But it is also important to consider that managing your own savings over fourty years is not without risk (mainly inflation, cracks and crooks). Most ordinary people are not able to afford this risk, and for them a collective scheme is a guarantee not to loose everything.

How is it collective to throw millions of people into a single governments pot for them to stir and eat as they like? If the government losses all the money they just tax the people more to cover their losses until ppl eventually have no money to live on because they have to give it all to the government to pay for the people who are retired!?

It obviously does not work to have a crapy government accountant manage everyones retirement and have the active people fund the inactive people retirement. The idea of the SS fund was to have people fund their own retirement... that didn't work! Thus, SS should be disbanded... and I think it will be before I am able to collect.

	24-09-2003 21:52									#88
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I agree with the diagnosis (we do exactly the same here) but I have some doubt about the care ...

	24-09-2003 22:28									#89
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I heard a story on the radio today about an old lady somewhere that was evicted from her home due to foreclosure. When the authorities entered the home they found buckets and containers of fecal matter all over the house and even in the fridge... Strange really, and very sad.

I think seniors need support and I have no problem supporting those who cannot support themselves. I am just sick and tired of giving to a failed and failing system. All the money that I give to this "pension" is supposidly going to benefit me when I'm old? BS!

It may be benefiting the elderly of today, but I don't want to be a burden on society when I am old anymore than those who are old today didn't want to be a burden. Yet, the government turned them into one.


On another note:

My parents are very well off, and because of which are questioning whether they should deny their SS. Should they?

	25-09-2003 00:25									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Japher I heard a story on the radio today about an old lady somewhere that was evicted from her home due to foreclosure. When the authorities entered the home they found buckets and containers of fecal matter all over the house and even in the fridge... Strange really, and very sad. I think seniors need support and I have no problem supporting those who cannot support themselves. I am just sick and tired of giving to a failed and failing system. All the money that I give to this "pension" is supposidly going to benefit me when I'm old? BS! It may be benefiting the elderly of today, but I don't want to be a burden on society when I am old anymore than those who are old today didn't want to be a burden. Yet, the government turned them into one. On another note: My parents are very well off, and because of which are questioning whether they should deny their SS. Should they?

One solution to that is the the ladys children make sure that she is taken care of and has a clean place to live with a bathroom and good food to eat. Everyone should make sure that they parents dont end up like this. Of course if your parents are crazy and like to kill people or if they refused to work and like to be a bum on the street that is different.