27-09-2003 10:19									#31
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Actually, I'd have to say that America would be Industrious and Scientific.

And if they had it as a Civ trait, I'd add "Adolescent".

But that is a poitical statement that doesn't really belong in a gaming forum. Whoops, I already said it.

	30-09-2003 02:11									#32
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quote: Originally posted by player1 Well, Industrial trait did get toned down (50% instead 100% worker bonus).

Well, that's news to me. Wow. Have they tweaked any of the other traits too, or just industrial?

Hmm... 50%

Road on flatlands: still 2 turns?
Mines on flatlands: 4 turns now, not 3?
Irrigation: 3 turns, not 2?
Forest chopping: 8 turns, not 5 (7.5 rounded up)?

That's a pretty big change. I think it's enough to re-open the "best trait" debate. Which is the point, of course: balance.

-Arrian

	30-09-2003 02:24									#33
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That's right, Arrian.

Now, let the debate begin!

(Of course, Seafaring and Agricultural may be up there, so perhaps the debate should wait until Conquests goes gold.)


Dominae

	30-09-2003 03:56									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian hmm... 50% Road on flatlands: still 2 turns? Mines on flatlands: 4 turns now, not 3? Irrigation: 3 turns, not 2? Forest chopping: 8 turns, not 5 (7.5 rounded up)? That's a pretty big change. I think it's enough to re-open the "best trait" debate. Which is the point, of course: balance.

interesting analysis.
this may change my opinion of industrial from a "must-have" to a "nice-to-have"...

	30-09-2003 15:18									#35
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Religious is more powerful too now, with Improved Communism, and new governement types.

	30-09-2003 20:45									#36
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Well, Religious is marginally so if you think Religious players are likely to switch from Monarchy to Fuedalism before switching to Republic. (Fuedalism is currently adviable about the time that a Religious civ would switch from Monarchy to Republic, and note that both Fuedalism and Republic have some War Werrious)

The improved Communism aspect doesn't really apeal to the Religious switching of govts in the middle of a war, because it take several turns to build that 2nd Forbidden Palace.

	08-10-2003 23:59									#37
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Dominae,

I have a hard time imagining that Seafaring is going to prove to be all that useful, except on very water-logged maps.

	09-10-2003 01:11									#38
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jkelly,

Really? Needing Printing Press for communication trading will make Seafaring interesting even on the continents setting.

It shouldn't be as good as the other traits on that except if you're aiming for a fast military vicory and the crossing is right or if you were going to be behind in tech for a long time.

	09-10-2003 19:34									#39
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Seafaring and Expansionist both get boosts from the changes to contact & map trading (contact now with printing press, maps now with navigation). Scouts & fast boats are going to be quite valueable.

I was reading the thread over on Civfanatics that lists all the "known" features/changes in Conquests, and there were several things that jumped out at me.

The first was the map/contact trading.
The second was the scientific great leader conditions:

-chance of getting a scientific GL each time you are first to discover a tech (still wondering whether you have to actually research it, or if exp civs getting techs from huts get a shot at a leader)
-chance is increased if your civ is scientific (!)
-sci GLs can rush wonders =OR= be used to boost scientific output in all of your cities by 25% for 20 turns (mini GA).

I can see myself playing around with Germany some more (sci/mil... oh my).

-Arrian

	09-10-2003 20:08									#40
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being the first to discover a tech, and thus getting a SGL, is extremely difficult on Deity. I don't think it's a good Deity-level attribute for the player.

And since they toned down Industrious, I'll play an Agr-Rel civ (instead of the Ind-Rel civ, Egypt).

	09-10-2003 22:31									#41
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I'm wondering if on the lower levels, you can just roll the sci great leaders.

Ex:

you discover a tech, get a leader
use that leader to boost sci by 25%
industrial age, probably getting a tech every 8-10 turns, lowered by leader
you get maybe 3 techs during the sci age, get another leader.
wash repeat

I'm guessing that you can only use one sci leader for a sci golden age, that you can't get like a 50% bonus due to overlap.



This will have huge, huge implications on the game. Your prebuilds for leo's etc will be undone if the ai that gets the tech first gets lucky with a leader and rushes it.

	09-10-2003 22:54									#42
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Never mind.

Last edited by Dominae on 09-10-2003 at 23:10

	10-10-2003 00:20									#43
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Rel and Sci are both looking really cool now.

In the stlye of a pompus fashion designer..
I think Rel is the next big thing, Agricultural is the new Industrious, Scientific is the new Mllitaristic, Commercial is on the way back (with no rcp), Sea-faring is the new Expantionist and Industrious and Millitaristic are yesterday's news.

	10-10-2003 01:45									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae Never mind.

Shame on you Dominae!

Wonder what this post held.

	10-10-2003 01:45									#45
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Scientific is still pretty weak, especcially on higher levels.

Rel is up (more govs)
Exp is up (map/comm trading comes later)
Ind is down (slower workers)
Sci is up (SGL)
Com is up (no RCP)
Mil stays the same

Agr seems very powerful
Sea only good on archipelago maps. Otherwise it's fairly weak.

	10-10-2003 02:23									#46
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quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel Shame on you Dominae! Wonder what this post held.

Nothing new, really.

Let's just say I have an unhealthy fear of my NAP.

Saint Marcus: I think you're really discounting the value of Seafaring on the higher difficulty levels. Coupled with the new rule about Contact trading, this trait allows you to get earlier overseas Contacts and keep them to yourself, which is undoubtedly very powerful the more tech trading you need to do (and you do a lot on Deity). Seafaring will obviously be better on Archipelago maps (as Expansionist is on Pangeas), but both are definitely potent on your standard Continents game.

I think both new traits create interesting and viable strategic options (so both the serious and casual gamers should be happy!).

Edit: You know you've played too much Civ3 when you say 'NAP' instead of 'NDA'.


Dominae

	10-10-2003 03:39									#47
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Seafaring is still pretty pointless.

A. there is an increased chance you end up near water, but not a guaranteed chance. Thus, if you end up in the middle of a continent, no benifits for you.
B. On small maps, you won't be able to monopolize contacts.
C. On pangea maps, seafaring is fairly pointless.
D. Even on a large continent map, or any map for that matter, the civ that builds the Lighthouse has the same benefits as you.

So what exactly is so good about it, besides cheap harbors, and using it on Archipelago maps?

Both Exp and Sea depend way too much on the setting of the map and the starting locations, and in a lot of cases are pretty pointless. Both only really come into play on huge maps, and then only certain shapes (expangea, sea:archipelago), and still depending on staring locations (island start for Exp civ means you've no use for your ability, ditto for a landlocked start for a seafaring civ).

	10-10-2003 05:06									#48
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I guess we should just wait until the game comes out, then debate this some more.



Personally I consider Expansionist to be one of the top traits on Deity, assuming you're not playing a Archipelago map. Keeping up in techs early on is extremely important (as you surely know), and if your 40-turn Polytheism or whatever gambit does not work, you're basically screwed. I know this is an oversimplification, but you get my point, namely, that anything that allows you to abuse the AI in tech trading is going to be strong on Deity. Seafaring allows just that.


Dominae

	10-10-2003 06:21									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus D. Even on a large continent map, or any map for that matter, the civ that builds the Lighthouse has the same benefits as you.

And why wouldn't this be you, if you were seafaring? You should try to lock up the bonus so that you control the contacts till the late middle ages. THis lets you control the trading between continents.

Sure, this trait may be wasted on a huge pangaea, but on standard size continents it is quite competitive.

(I disagree with you strongly on Expansionistic. I think it is about the most powerful trait and I usually play on standard size continents games).

	10-10-2003 16:48									#50
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quote: And why wouldn't this be you, if you were seafaring? You should try to lock up the bonus so that you control the contacts till the late middle ages. THis lets you control the trading between continents.

A. There are other seafaring civs out there too, monopolising trade between continents would be shear impossible.
B. If you have different civ traits, just build the Lighthouse and you'll have the same bonusses as the seafaring civs. Pretty lame to have a civ trait that you can easily get by building wonders. The point is, you can play any civ, and still get the Seafaring bonusses just by building the right wonder. This isn't the case for any of the other traits, and for me this places Seafaring way down the list of civ traits.

Still for me:
1. Agr
2. Rel
3. Ind
4. Exp
5. Com
6. Sci
7. Mil
8. Sea

Depending on the map size, map shape, and difficulty level of course.

	10-10-2003 19:13									#51
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I was just wondering... will the 1/2 price harbors benifit transfer from militaristic to seafaring? If so, that's definitely a hit to militaristic. Not necessarily a huge one, but it's something.

-Arrian

	10-10-2003 20:21									#52
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It looks like players are still divided on what trait will be the best/worse in Conquests. This in itself, I believe, is a good thing. Conquests promises to be a very diverse game and as it stands right now, one cannot definitively say that one trait will be better or worse than another.

	15-10-2003 03:20									#53
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I'M Modding China and India to be agrocultural, if they aren't already. Bothb countries have over a billion people, and I'm sure that they're not the only nationalities that enjoy sex!

	15-10-2003 03:25									#54
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quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel I think an ag/exp civ would be quite nice. quick graineries with that extra food. mmm.

No, I've found that granaries are a mixed blessing. Building them instead of REXing or fighting an early war was a mistake. I'd think an ag civ would build less granaries, because the trait is self limiting.

	15-10-2003 12:39									#55
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quote: Originally posted by joncnunn Well, Russia isn't known for Farming or Seafaring, so Russia's traights likely to remain as they currently are. Well, a real world America would have Industrial, Farming, Expansionist, Seafaring, Commerical, and Scientific. But that would make them no fun to play. (Too easy) Most likely, America will be Industrial & Farming.

I think America should be militaristic/scientific, or commercial/scientific.

BTW, Byzantines are scientific and seafaring. I don't think that these traits are historically descriptive for Byzantium. Byzantines were religious more than anything else...

So, IMHO they should be religious (and not scientific) and commercial (and not seafaring). The advantage the Byzantines had in sea during their era is presented perfectly with their UU. Thus, the seafaring trait is not necessary.

	15-10-2003 15:51									#56
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But seafaring gives commercial bonuses to those by the sea.

	16-10-2003 00:15									#57
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I think the commercial advantage Byzantine had by being at the end of the silk road was far superior to any it had by naval trade. It was Venice who prospered the most at sea (The leader of Venice agreed to finance the fourth crusade, but required command of the army. Then they sacked and looted Constantinople because of the commercial power of their economic rival).

	16-10-2003 00:24									#58
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The Persians profited a lot more from the Silk Road than the Byzantines ever did.

	16-10-2003 17:11									#59
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Saint Marcus wrote:

quote: C. On pangea maps, seafaring is fairly pointless.

On pangea maps where you have access to the coast, seafaring civs can stick explorers in a boat or boats and voila, speedened contact with neighbors. Not so great for finding huts, but the more I play, the more I realize that for non-expansionists, the point of exploration is quick contact, not huts.

USC

	16-10-2003 21:54									#60
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Especially on higher difficulty levels when all you get are barbs anyway.

Seafaring has a use on Pangea if you want to attack behind enemy lines (4 movement for Galley is faster than anything else).