26-09-2003 22:44									#91
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Capitalist imperialism was. It wouldn't have existed without the enlightenment.

	26-09-2003 22:45									#92
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara All you had to do was look at how everyone else spelled it.

	26-09-2003 22:47									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Capitalist imperialism was. It wouldn't have existed without the enlightenment.

Capitalism wouldn't have existed without the enlightenment. Imperialism still would.

	26-09-2003 22:47									#94
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Right. So capitalist imperialism wouldn't have existed without the enlightenment.

	26-09-2003 22:47									#95
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great game.

westerners sure know how to waste time.

	26-09-2003 22:49									#96
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Well, I'd classify both styles of imperialistic policies (Spanish/Portuguese/French and English/Dutch) mercantilistic in their own ways. I'm not sure what you mean.

There were certainly merchantilist aspects to the earlier colonialism. The Spanish were always trying to prevent traders from other nations from visiting their colonial ports. They wanted to save 100% of those markets for Spanish merchants; of course the people who lived in the colonies still wanted goods at the lowest price possible so the system never worked the way the Spanish wanted it to.

That didn't stop Spain or the other colonial powers from passing navigation acts though.

	26-09-2003 22:50									#97
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quote: great game. westerners sure know how to waste time.

Says the man whose people spend most of their waking lives playing Starcraft.

	26-09-2003 22:51									#98
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Right. So capitalist imperialism wouldn't have existed without the enlightenment.

smartass. it would still exist, it just wouldn't have been capitalist.

	26-09-2003 22:51									#99
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quote: There were certainly merchantilist aspects to the earlier colonialism. The Spanish were always trying to prevent traders from other nations from visiting their colonial ports. They wanted to save 100% of those markets for Spanish merchants; of course the people who lived in the colonies still wanted goods at the lowest price possible so the system never worked the way the Spanish wanted it to.

Not really. The English and Dutch were much more adamant than the Spanish (and Portuguese) about preventing other traders from visiting their colonial ports. The Spanish and Portuguese didn't care that much about maintaining dominance over their colonial markets - precious metals were much more important for them. That's pretty much why they were displaced.

	26-09-2003 22:53									#100
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that, and the lack of the banking class to re-invest the capital.

	26-09-2003 22:55									#101
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Cbeast!

	26-09-2003 23:12									#102
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel Yes, the processes by which they operate are different, but in the case of European domination of the world, the one naturally flowed into the other.

But they didn't. pre-capitalist forms of imperialism were on the decline. France and Spain had lost most of their empires. The Portugese and Dutch lost their colonies in Africa.

Only Britain's empire expanded, despite the loss of a good chunk of North America, and that's because, from the begining, British Imperialism was about capitalism and not piracy, plunder, and pillage. British imperialism was about building and investing. That what capitalist imperialism is all about, seeking a place to invest you profits, controling the markets, etc.

	26-09-2003 23:24									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Cbeast!

The great Japanese hunter bags another one.

	26-09-2003 23:32									#104
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quote: Says the man whose people spend most of their waking lives playing Starcraft.

well, yeah, but that's not wasting time. you can make good money doing that.

	26-09-2003 23:41									#105
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara But they didn't. pre-capitalist forms of imperialism were on the decline. France and Spain had lost most of their empires. The Portugese and Dutch lost their colonies in Africa. Only Britain's empire expanded, despite the loss of a good chunk of North America, and that's because, from the begining, British Imperialism was about capitalism and not piracy, plunder, and pillage. British imperialism was about building and investing. That what capitalist imperialism is all about, seeking a place to invest you profits, controling the markets, etc.

So does capitalism predate the enlightenment?

	26-09-2003 23:54									#106
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel So does capitalism predate the enlightenment?

I would argue yes, but most non-Marxists wouldn't.

	26-09-2003 23:56									#107
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Ah, the everlasting question, "What is capitalism?"

	27-09-2003 01:03									#108
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Private, non-worker control of the means of production I think is a decent definition.

	27-09-2003 01:05									#109
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by this definition, it indeed predates the enlightenment by far.

	27-09-2003 01:06									#110
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Yep.

	27-09-2003 01:09									#111
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I feel that this thread was threadjacked enough. Let's get back to the original issue, and leave this issue at peace.

	27-09-2003 05:34									#112
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel So does capitalism predate the enlightenment?

Think of what were the great engines fuelling the mercantilist empires of the Netherlands and England/Great Britain- in neither case was it the desire to proselytize for religion (partly the case with Spain, Portugal and France) nor the desire to simply amass plunder and bullion (think of the gold and silver mines of Potosi, Central and South America). The impetus behind the empire building of the Dutch and the English/british was trade- both the VOC and the East India Company (the Hudson's Bay Company too, for that matter) created essentially trading empires overseas as opposed to empires by outright conquest.

The British Empire in India stems from a trading port, canny alliances and diplomacy (and marriage to a Portuguese princess)- similarly with the Dutch in Sri Lanka, and the Dutch East Indies. When the empires developed, the European nations could place a tariff zone around their colonies, and force places such as India to buy English cotton.

But it could well be argued also, that this proto-capitalist approach to empire helped energize the intellectual processes of the Enlightenment which then led to the typical 19th century form of imperialism, with Palmerstonian gunboat diplomacy, commdities forced on nations (opium to China), and so forth. I think the crazes for new things, new ideas, new tastes, new art, was at least fed by the expanding trade networks- Chinoiserie crazes, Moghul/Saracen style architecture, Japanese prints, Pacific and African 'primitive' art.

	27-09-2003 05:54									#113
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So we have a bunch of people living a way of life that has existed, depending on how you decide to define it, for only 12,000 years TOP (assuming you define modern life as agricultural life), with 9000 (urban life) being perhaps a bit better claim carpet superiority oevr a way of life that has existed sincve the beginning of mankind as a new species....how, interesting?

Whether something is better or worse is based solely on your aims: what you define as where we should go and what we should be defines what is good society and bad society, worthwhile and not, better or worse.

	29-09-2003 14:03									#114
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Even the half-naked "primitives" think that living past 35 is better than not. They lack the means to effect it by their own medicine, and therefore capitalist-derived health is better.