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Vesayen is offline Vesayen
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Mar 2002
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  Old Post 24-09-2003 23:49
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Your culture sucks, mine is better Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I just went to my first relative anthropology class..... where the teacher explained how all different societies are equally valuable......... she then discussed various groups like sub saharan african tribes and "native" brazilians-and how their way of life is sadly dissapearing because the new generation decides it would rather work a cash register at Sears then run around the rain forest half naked and die of typhoid at the ripe old age of 35.........

Az is offline Az
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MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
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  Old Post 24-09-2003 23:52
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what a moron.

good thread, Vesayen. I'll have some real insight tomorrow.

Sandman is offline Sandman
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Aug 2001
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  Old Post 24-09-2003 23:55
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Culture has no intrinsic moral value.

Lord Merciless is offline Lord Merciless
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Jul 2002
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  Old Post 24-09-2003 23:59
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This teacher is rather a hypocrite: he/she doesn't care about how other people feel, he/she is sad because places that can satisfy his/her curiorsity are dwindling.

Atahualpa is offline Atahualpa
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Maybe she was sad about them losing their identity and uniquness.

Atahualpa is offline Atahualpa
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Lord Merciless:



You're pretty fast in making judges

Lord Merciless is offline Lord Merciless
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quote:
Originally posted by Atahualpa
Maybe she was sad about them losing their identity and uniquness.


Identity and uniqueness are nothing compared to rising living standard, better health, and more respect from others.

The poor and weak do not command respect, only the rich and strong do.

Sirotnikov is offline Sirotnikov
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Feb 2000
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  Old Post 25-09-2003 00:06
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ha-ha!

quote:
Article28 May 2002
All cultures are not equal

by Kenan Malik


'I denounce European colonialism', wrote CLR James. 'But I respect the learning and profound discoveries of Western civilisation.' (1)


James was one of the great radicals of the twentieth century, an anti-imperialist, a superb historian of black struggles, a Marxist who remained one even when it was no longer fashionable to be so. But today, James' defence of 'Western civilisation' would probably be dismissed as Eurocentric, even racist.


To be radical today is to display disenchantment with all that is 'Western' - by which most mean modernism and the ideas of the Enlightenment - in the name of 'diversity' and 'difference'. The modernist project of pursuing a rational, scientific understanding of the natural and social world - a project that James unashamedly championed - is now widely regarded as a dangerous fantasy, even as oppressive.


'Subjugation', according to the philosopher David Goldberg, 'defines the order of the Enlightenment: subjugation of nature by human intellect, colonial control through physical and cultural domination, and economic superiority through mastery of the laws of the market' (2). The mastery of nature and the rational organisation of society, which were once seen as the basis of human emancipation, have now become the sources of human enslavement.


Enlightenment universalism, such critics argue, is racist because it seeks to impose Euro-American ideas of rationality and objectivity on other peoples. 'The universalising discourses of modern Europe and the United States', argues Edward Said, 'assume the silence, willing or otherwise, of the non-European world.' (3)


Not just for radicals, but for many mainstream liberals too, the road that began in the Enlightenment ends in savagery, even genocide. As the sociologist Zygmunt Bauman argues: 'Every ingredient of the Holocaust... was normal... in the sense of being fully in keeping with everything we know about our civilisation, its guiding spirits, its priorities, its immanent vision of the world - and of the proper ways to pursue human happiness together with a perfect society.' (4)


This belief that modernism lies at the root of all evil is so pervasive that only right-wing reactionaries, like Italian prime minister Silvio Berlusconi, former UK prime minister Margaret Thatcher or the late Dutch politician Pim Fortuyn, it sometimes seems, are willing unreservedly to defend James' belief in the superiority of 'the learning and profound discoveries of Western civilisation'.


So the real question to ask in the wake of 11 September 11 is not, as many have suggested, 'Why do they hate us?', but rather 'Why do we seem to hate ourselves?'. Why is it that Western liberals and radicals have become so disenchanted with modern civilisation that some even welcomed the attack on the Twin Towers as an anti-imperialist act?


CLR James, like most anti-imperialists in the past, recognised that all progressive politics were rooted in the 'Western tradition', and in particular in the ideas of reason, progress, humanism and universalism that emerged out of the Enlightenment. The scientific method, democratic politics, the concept of universal values - these are palpably better concepts than those that existed previously, or those that exist now in other political and cultural traditions. Not because Europeans are a superior people, but because out of the Renaissance, the Enlightenment and the scientific revolution flowed superior ideas.


The Western tradition is not Western in any essential sense, but only through an accident of geography and history. Indeed, Islamic learning provided an important resource for both the Renaissance and the development of science. The ideas we call 'Western' are in fact universal, laying the basis for greater human flourishing. That is why for much of the past century radicals, especially third world radicals, recognised that the problem of imperialism was not that it was a Western ideology, but that it was an obstacle to the pursuit of the progressive ideals that arose out of the Enlightenment.


As Frantz Fanon, the Martinique-born Algerian nationalist, put it: 'All the elements of a solution to the great problems of humanity have, at different times, existed in European thought. But Europeans have not carried out in practice the mission that fell to them.' (5) For thinkers like Fanon and James, the aim of anti-imperialism was not to reject Western ideas but to reclaim them for all of humanity.


Indeed, Western liberals were often shocked by the extent to which anti-colonial movements adopted what they considered to be tainted notions. The Enlightenment concepts of universalism and social progress, the French anthropologist Claude Levi-Strauss observed, found 'unexpected support from peoples who desire nothing more than to share in the benefits of industrialisation; peoples who prefer to look upon themselves as temporarily backward rather than permanently different'. Elsewhere he noted that the doctrine of cultural relativism 'was challenged by the very people for whose moral benefit the anthropologists had established it in the first place' (6).


How things have changed. 'Permanently different' is exactly how we tend to see different, groups, societies and cultures today. Why? Largely because contemporary society has lost faith in social transformation, in the possibility of progress, in the beliefs that animated anti-imperialists like James and Fanon.


To regard people as 'temporarily backward' rather than 'permanently different' is to accept that while people are potentially equal, cultures definitely are not; it is to accept the idea of social and moral progress; that it would be far better if everybody had the chance to live in the type of society or culture that best promoted human advancement.


But it's just these ideas - and the very act of making judgements about beliefs, values, lifestyles, and cultures - that are now viewed as politically uncouth. In place of the progressive universalism of James and Fanon, contemporary Western societies have embraced a form of nihilistic multiculturalism. We've come to see the world as divided into cultures and groups defined largely by their difference with each other. And every group has come to see itself as composed not of active agents attempting to overcome disadvantages by striving for equality and progress, but of passive victims with irresolvable grievances. For if differences are permanent, how can grievances ever be resolved?


The corollary of turning the whole world into a network of victims is to transform the West, and in particular the USA, into an all-powerful malign force - the Great Satan - against which all must rage. In Salman Rushdie's The Satanic Verses, one of the central characters, Saladin, finds himself incarcerated in a detention centre for illegal immigrants. Saladin discovers that his fellow inmates have been transformed into beasts - water buffaloes, snakes, manticores. He himself has become a hairy goat.


How do they do it, Saladin asks a fellow prisoner? 'They describe us', comes the reply, 'that's all. They have the power of description and we succumb to the pictures they construct'. There is a similar sense of fatalism in the way that many contemporary radicals view the USA. The Great Satan describes the world, and the world succumbs to those descriptions.


In this fatalism lies a common thread that binds contemporary Western radicalism and fundamentalist Islam. On the surface the two seem poles apart: fundamentalists loathe Western decadence, Western radicals fear Islamic presumptions of certainty. But what unites the two is that both are rooted in contemporary nihilistic multiculturalism; both express, at best, ambivalence about, at worst outright rejection of, the ideas of modernity, universality, and progress. And both see no real alternative to Western power.


Most importantly, both conflate the gains of modernism and the iniquities of capitalism. In this way the positive aspects of capitalist society - its invocation of reason, its technological advancements, its ideological commitment to equality and universalism - are denigrated, while its negative aspects - the inability to overcome social divisions, the contrast between technological advance and moral turpitude, the tendencies towards barbarism - are seen as inevitable or natural.


According to this worldview, all one can hope for, in the words of Edward Said, is 'the possibility of a more generous and pluralistic vision of the world, in which imperialism courses on, as it were, belatedly, in different forms (the North-South polarity of our time is one), and the relationship of domination continues, but the opportunities for liberation are open.' (7) But what can liberation mean if nothing is to change and 'imperialism courses on'? Is it not more likely that such a view will give rise, not to a 'generous and pluralistic vision of the world', but to a darkly dystopian and misanthropic one, where all that is left is nihilistic rage - the kind of rage that led to the events of 11 September?


The fury that drove the planes into Twin Towers was nurtured as much by the nihilism and fatalism that now grips much of Western society as by the struggle in Palestine or anywhere else in the third world. There was nothing remotely anti-imperialist or progressive about the attack; nor is there about the visceral anti-Americanism that today animates Islamic fundamentalists and Western radicals alike. There is much to deplore about American society and American foreign policy. But little of it is embodied in the anti-Americanism either of Islamic fundamentalism or of contemporary Western radicalism. Rather, they are both the products of the failure of anti-imperialism, and of a disaffection with the modern world. The irony of such estrangement from modernism is that it is as rooted in the 'Western tradition' as modernism itself - but only in its more reactionary and backward-looking strands.


'Today, we are present at the stasis of Europe', Frantz Fanon wrote. Europe 'has shaken off all guidance and all reason, and she is running headlong into the abyss; we would do well to avoid it with all speed.' (8) Forty years ago, Fanon was issuing a clarion call against imperialism. Today he could be equally well warning us about the consequences of what passes for anti-imperialism.


Kenan Malik spoke at the spiked conference After 11 September: Fear and Loathing in the West, on Sunday 26 May at the Bishopsgate Institute in London. See here for full details. Kenan Malik is also author of The Meaning of Race (buy this from Amazon UK), Man, Beast and Zombie: What Science Can and Cannot Tell Us About Human Nature (buy this from Amazon UK), and the Institute of Ideas publication 'What is it to be human? What science can and cannot tell us'


(1) CLR James, 'The Making of the Caribbean People', in Spheres of Existence: Selected Writings (London: Alison and Busby, 1980), p179

(2) David Theo Goldberg, Racist Culture (Oxford: Blackwell, 1993), p29

(3) Edward Said, Culture and Imperialism (London: Chatto & Windus, 1993), p58

(4) Zygmunt Bauman, Modernity and the Holocaust (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1989), p8

(5) Frantz Fanon, The Wretched of the Earth (Harmondsworth: Penguin, 1967 [first pub 1961]), p253

(6) Claude Levi-Strauss, Structural Anthropology, vol2 (Harmondworth: Penguin, 1978 [first pub 1973]), p53; idem, The View from Afar (Harmondsworth: Penguin, 1987 [first pub 1983]), p28

(7) Edward Said, Culture and Imperialism, pp277-278

(8) Frantz Fanon, The Wretched of the Earth, pp253, 252


Reprinted from : http://www.spiked-online.com/Articles/00000006D90C.htm

Az is offline Az
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MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
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  Old Post 25-09-2003 00:10
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so true, so true. Rightwingers highjack modernism to promote economic "freedom", and leftwingers hug muslim terrorism.

Atahualpa is offline Atahualpa
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Mar 1999
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Merciless
Identity and uniqueness are nothing compared to rising living standard, better health, and more respect from others.

The poor and weak do not command respect, only the rich and strong do.


And of course its you who commands this so actually you are not caring about other persons
I guess its up to them what they want to do, but that one cant be sad about it, w/o being called arrogant and selfish is a matter I find quite questionable.

ata

Az is offline Az
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MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
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  Old Post 25-09-2003 00:18
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Here comes "White Man's Burden"s brother, The "Noble Savage".

Atahualpa is offline Atahualpa
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Mar 1999
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quote:
So the real question to ask in the wake of 11 September 11 is not, as many have suggested, 'Why do they hate us?', but rather 'Why do we seem to hate ourselves?'. Why is it that Western liberals and radicals have become so disenchanted with modern civilisation that some even welcomed the attack on the Twin Towers as an anti-imperialist act?


Maybe because we are not unique anymore and have lost our identity?

Ramo is offline Ramo
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Oct 1999
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quote:
CLR James, like most anti-imperialists in the past, recognised that all progressive politics were rooted in the 'Western tradition', and in particular in the ideas of reason, progress, humanism and universalism that emerged out of the Enlightenment.


I'll have to call bullshit on that. F'r instance, Taoism is basically anarchism theified.

Az is offline Az
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MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
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after reading that article again, I agree with it even more, oh so much more.

lord of the mark is offline lord of the mark
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Dec 2000
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  Old Post 25-09-2003 00:23
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Clearly the most superior culture on earth is American, more specifically the moderately assimilated Jewish immigrant variety as found in middle class neighborhoods of Brooklyn, New York circa 1950 to 1980.

Chemical Ollie is offline Chemical Ollie
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Jan 2002
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  Old Post 25-09-2003 00:24
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Your teacher should convert to heathen religion, drop her clothes and move to the jungle.

BeBro is offline BeBro
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quote:
Originally posted by Ramo


I'll have to call bullshit on that. F'r instance, Taoism is basically anarchism theified.


But Anarchism is not progressive

Az is offline Az
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quote:
Originally posted by Ramo


I'll have to call bullshit on that. F'r instance, Taoism is basically anarchism theified.


Is it like the time that you call upon Civil war Cataluna to prove that anarchism works?

Vesayen is offline Vesayen
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quote:
Originally posted by lord of the mark
Clearly the most superior culture on earth is American, more specifically the moderately assimilated Jewish immigrant variety as found in middle class neighborhoods of Brooklyn, New York circa 1950 to 1980.


I live within a 3 hour drive from there, so I'll agree

Ramo is offline Ramo
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quote:
Is it like the time that you call upon Civil war Cataluna to prove that anarchism works?


Nah, since you can verify it by picking up a book. And that wasn't to prove anarchism works, but that there's no good reason to think it can't work.

quote:
But Anarchism is not progressive


If your idea of progress is subjagation to the state and capital, I suppose not.

Atahualpa is offline Atahualpa
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quote:
Originally posted by Azazel
so true, so true. Rightwingers highjack modernism to promote economic "freedom", and leftwingers hug muslim terrorism.


I wonder why they invented Technicolor when the only two colors we need are black and white.

Az is offline Az
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quote:


Nah, since you can verify it by picking up a book. And that wasn't to prove anarchism works, but that there's no good reason to think it can't work.


My point was that this is a very particular case. There are much more important movements that anarchism that the enlightment has spawned. No offence.

BeBro is offline BeBro
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quote:
Originally posted by Ramo

If your idea of progress is subjagation to the state and capital, I suppose not.


I donīt let them get me

Ramo is offline Ramo
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Well he did say all progressive politics. A single case would refute the assertion.

Az is offline Az
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smartass.

Ramo is offline Ramo
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There are probably lots of cases, but I'm not well versed in non-Western philosophy.

Curiosity is offline Curiosity
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Jan 2003
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quote:
Originally posted by Vesayen
she then discussed various groups like sub saharan african tribes and "native" brazilians-and how their way of life is sadly dissapearing because the new generation decides it would rather work a cash register at Sears then run around the rain forest half naked and die of typhoid at the ripe old age of 35.........


You could look at it like that.

Then again, on the flip side; native south americans have been ****ed by the Portuguese and the Spanish, ****ed by their own governments, ****ed by the loggers, the miners, and everyone else who thought they could make a buck out of the Jungle.
As a result, they've been denied any opportunity to develop their culture. What was there has been uniformly destroyed.
Now, they're being absorbed into mainstream society as an illiterate underclass. And the underclass career stream in Brazil is already fully booked out. Anyone want to make a guess at the life expectancy in the shanty towns?

Overall, it's a sorry way to destroy a culture.


Ramo,

quote:
Taoism is basically anarchism theified


Interesting statement - I can't even decide if I agree or disagree. Care to justify it?

Whaleboy is offline Whaleboy
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If you're in one culture, judging another then OF COURSE YOU'RE GOING TO JUDGE YOURS BETTER THAN ANOTHER AND FAULT THEIRS!!! Its called subjectivity!!! Objectively, it sucks. Fortunately there are people like me around who can at least try to emulate some semblance of objectivity.

quote:

leftwingers hug muslim terrorism


How exactly? Tell me how my berating of terrorism (equal to my berating of its causes ) is hugging terrorists?

And don't spout some Orwellian rubbish. I know the quote you're thinking of, and the man has got his subjectivies and objectivies mixed up. The quote makes no sense (the quote in question is the one about pacifists being objectively pro-nazi). Foolish.

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
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Excellent article, Siro.

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
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quote:
Originally posted by Ramo
Well he did say all progressive politics. A single case would refute the assertion.


Anarchism doesn't come from China. They have similar ideas, but they came from different well-springs.

 
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