25-09-2003 07:53									#1
	California Recall Debate Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Did you anyone watch it?

The moderator annoyed me by constantly interrupting McClintock to tell him how much time there was left for any topic. Arriana and Arnie were a bit of a laugh with their exchanges...

Cruz Bustamante - "We spent too much"



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	25-09-2003 07:59									#2
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I saw half of it and then got bored. Ariana was her typical nutty self, Cruz was trying to get people to think about anything but the $38 billion deficite he and Davis made, Arnie was all about slogans and one liners, while McClintock actually seemed to have hard numbers to back up everything he said. The Green Party candidate seemed like a wall flower because he just sat there hardly speaking at all.

After watching the debate I'd have to say McCintock is the candidate who impressed me the most. He seemed dignified and he obviously spent alot of time examining the tax income vs expenditures because he was able to name specific places to cut in order to eliminate the Deficit.

	25-09-2003 08:00									#3
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Yeah, I reckon McClintock was the winner.

	25-09-2003 08:01									#4
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	25-09-2003 08:06									#5
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Who cares? I don't live in California, why should I watch it?

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	25-09-2003 08:08									#6
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Why post in this thread then?

	25-09-2003 08:08									#7
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I don't understand the national attention that California is getting over this recall.

I did not watch any part of the debate -- I was not THAT bored.

	25-09-2003 08:08									#8
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To spite you?

	25-09-2003 08:09									#9
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The moderator needs to have a mute button to stop the candidates from talking over each other and getting off the subject.

	25-09-2003 08:09									#10
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To throw tomatoes at him.

	25-09-2003 08:12									#11
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McClintock won, Arnie did well by matching or surpassing expectations - he didn't screw up badly.

	25-09-2003 08:19									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Why post in this thread then?

For the same reason a Kiwi started the thread?

ACK!

	25-09-2003 08:19									#13
	Suffering from ads?

I was a bit stunned by two things the green candidate said: the rich in California pay a lower income tax rate - ~7% than others - ~9% and that he wanted the rate to be equal - a flat tax.

	25-09-2003 08:26									#14
	strange numbers Tired of ads?

I thought Peter Camejo was the most articulate of the candidates. However, his numbers could be a bit misleading. He really wants a progressive tax system where the rich pay more as a percentage than the poor. His number that show the rich pay a lower percentage are based upon estimates of what the rich people's income levels are. There is a lot of wiggle room on how to estimate what the real income level is of a rich person.

	25-09-2003 08:37									#15
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I didn't watch the debate, but if Camejo actually said that the rich pay a lower income tax rate than others, he's lying or on crack. The income tax here is indeed progressive, with a top rate of 9.3% (or something like that; I might be a few tenths off) for that part of your income which crosses the highest threshold.

Perhaps what Camejo really said, or really meant, was that when all taxes (especially sales taxes and auto fees) are taken into account, the poor pay a higher percentage than the rich. That might be true; I don't have the numbers or the patience to crunch them.

	25-09-2003 09:32									#16
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Didn't notice the thread:


I think that Bustamante has presented a rather usual leftist populist world view.

I think that Arianna Huffington was a one-trick clown. She basically plays the same cards as Schwarzennegger which are blaming the current politicians as being in-appropriate and too "inside the system" to make a change. For this reason she was attacking Schwarzennegger directly the whole time. This doesn't play into her hands though, but more helps the other candidates. It's like the 3rd wierdo candidate in the presidential elections which gave Bill Clinton a promised majority in 1992 I think.

I think Peter Camejo has presented the usual "drivel" we see coming from alot of commies here on Apolyton. While some of his points have merit and are important, they get swallowed up in his general mood.

I think that while possibly unpopular, McClintock has gave a good performance and clarified his standings to the voters, in contrast with Mr. Schwartzenegger. The majority of the Republicans seem to be behind Arnold because of the obvious "familiar face" advantage, but McClintock does a better job of seeing and expressing their traditional views.


I think that Arnold gave a decent performnce, but a rather weak one if you consider that the questions were all given in advance. I would have thought he would have by now had some grasp of policy beyond bland statements, or at least would have written some convincing ideas. He did not.

Instead Arnold chose to say about each topic that "it is very important" and stressing that "the current government has failed" and gave a lengthy description of the failings. Each time he vowed to change all that. But as other candidates explained how, Arnold, except outlining his general deep care for each issue, did not give any specifics.

Maybe it would have been OK usually, but his agenda seemed more pale and less "meaty" that that of the other contenders.

Arnold has certainly done his homework about the previous government and the problems California faces, all the other candidates seemed to have surpassed him by actually submitting "thesis papers" on the solutions. Arnold seemed to lag behind.

	25-09-2003 10:18									#17
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I was disappointed. I really wanted to hear Ahhnold say, "Listen to me now and hear me later: Cruz Bustamonte is a flabby girlie-man!"

	25-09-2003 10:54									#18
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin I saw half of it and then got bored. Ariana was her typical nutty self, Cruz was trying to get people to think about anything but the $38 billion deficite he and Davis made, Arnie was all about slogans and one liners, while McClintock actually seemed to have hard numbers to back up everything he said. The Green Party candidate seemed like a wall flower because he just sat there hardly speaking at all. After watching the debate I'd have to say McCintock is the candidate who impressed me the most. He seemed dignified and he obviously spent alot of time examining the tax income vs expenditures because he was able to name specific places to cut in order to eliminate the Deficit.

I enjoyed the debate a lot. I also think that Arnie and McClintock are going to see there poll numbers jump. I dont know why Arine did not jump into the other debates, he did pretty good.

	25-09-2003 10:57									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker I was a bit stunned by two things the green candidate said: the rich in California pay a lower income tax rate - ~7% than others - ~9% and that he wanted the rate to be equal - a flat tax.

that was a bold face lie. All income taxes in the US are progressive. The rich always pay higher taxes then those that dont make as much money.

	25-09-2003 19:33									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Jack_www that was a bold face lie. All income taxes in the US are progressive. The rich always pay higher taxes then those that dont make as much money.

Just as I thought.

	25-09-2003 19:35									#21
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Here is a summary for those who missed it:

Arnold did not suck.

McClintock rules.

Camejo is a wacko commie.

Ariana Hunfington is a joke.

Bustamante is Gray Davis junior.

	25-09-2003 20:01									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Jack_www that was a bold face lie. All income taxes in the US are progressive. The rich always pay higher taxes then those that dont make as much money.

Comejo was on Fox right after the debates so I decided to tune in and see what he had to say. Apparently he's using some sort of fancy math to arrive at his 9% vs 7% and he was having a real hard time explaining how he arrived at those numbers. The state has a progressive income tax which tops out at 9.3% (remember they have to pay this in addition to all Federal taxes which is itself progressive) so Comejo must be trying to include things like vehicle registration fees, sales tax, and other such things.

The problem with that is vehicle fees change with the value of the vehicle being registered so it's real hard to say people in bracket A pay X while people in bracket B pay Y. It's the same story with sales tax since how much sales tax you pay depends upon how much of your pay check you spend on taxable items (things like food and what not are non-taxable). Comejo couldn't even explain where he got his numbers from so I'm guessing some fancy policy PAC generated them with the express purpose of trying to justify raising taxes on the rich.

	25-09-2003 20:16									#24
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quote: I dont know why Arine did not jump into the other debates

Perhaps because they did not offer the questions in advance.

	25-09-2003 20:34									#25
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I watched the whole thing. Arnold didn't answer any of the questions. Ariana was just silly. To listen to them try to pronounce the name of the state just made me laugh.

As for the rest, McClintok is your typical Republican...we have a great deficit, but heck, LETS CUT MORE RICH TAXES!

Camejo I thought looked the best, though I'm not sure about his fuzzy math.

Bustamante had the best platform, and kept his cool for almost all of the debate. No wonder the republicans are unsure if they made the best decision.

	25-09-2003 20:55									#26
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I was singularly impressed with Bustamante. He appeared competent, dignified and respectful. He has a tremendous voice. If he ever wanted to get out of politics, he could have a big future in acting or on talk radio.

I do have pause, though, about his connections with the unions and with the Indian gambling interests. He appears to be as corrupt as Gray Davis.

I knew nothing about Huffington prior to the debate. My impression of her is entirely negative. I could not stand her as governor on a personal level.

To the extent of her policies, she clearly is on the hard left of spectrum which is something California does not need. As a result, she had no serious plans to cut spending and only offered to raise taxes.

Cameo was shocking in being so out-of-step with reality. He hammered on his far left communist platform endlessly. It got old. But after he was finished, I realized that Jimmy Carter emphazised the same capitalist-bashing when he was president. God was a miserable president he was.

McClintock was magnificent in clicking off detailed solutions to all of California's budget problems. It will be hard to get him out of the race. California would do well if this man were governor. Even if he is not elected, he should be part of the next administration in some important fashion. Schwarzenegger said as much.

Arnie was good and funny at the same time. I think politicians need a sense of humor. I also think they need a grand vision. Arnie certainly has that - improving the business climate of California. Arnie's vision has set the agenda for California and the agenda for the debates. I think most people agree with Arnie's vision and will vote for him for that reason.

I also tend to be a fiscal conservative and a social liberal - so Arnie is my man. Because of his social liberalism, Arnie will also be popular among Democrats who would like to improve California's business climate while not risking turning California over to the religious right.

	25-09-2003 21:05									#27
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quote: Arnold did not suck. McClintock rules. Camejo is a wacko commie. Ariana Hunfington is a joke. Bustamante is Gray Davis junior.

That's about right.

quote: I was singularly impressed with Bustamante

Actually, I was too, and agree with your comment about him being good for radio. Still, I disagree with his politics, and ALL politicians are corrupt (especially a latino from Dinuba- though he is not from Dinuba, just claims to be)

quote: I knew nothing about Huffington prior to the debate. My impression of her is entirely negative. I could not stand her as governor on a personal level.

Ditto. I think was on the debate for comic relief.

quote: Cameo was shocking in being so out-of-step with reality

Yup, that's why he's in the Green Party.

I liked Mac and Arnie both pretty much the same. They both addressed the issues and not their opponents. I will most likely vote for Arnie over Mac just because he is more of a peoples man, and seems more dedicated to trying to do a good job.

Side note: I started watching the debate with Savage, but had to turn him off because he just talked over the whole debate (like he does every call). Yet, for the past week or two Michael has been bashing Arnold pretty hard, but by the end of the debate he was actually rather keen to the idea of Arnold as governor... That shocked me. (and no Sava I do not do everything Savage or any one else on conservative radio tells me)

	25-09-2003 21:12									#28
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quote: Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous As for the rest, McClintok is your typical Republican...we have a great deficit, but heck, LETS CUT MORE RICH TAXES!

Hmmm, When did he say to cut taxes? I didn't watch the second half but in the first half McClintok kept talking about cutting spending and not cutting taxes. He did talk about reversing the 300% increase Davis made in the automobile registration fees but he also outlined specific areas where the state could make cuts in order to save money.

Examples are: Currently the state operates as a closed shop where only unions can bid on many state contracts; McClintok wants to open everything to competitive bidding since it will likely lower costs. He also showed several places where the state's bureaucracy duplicates the actions of the Federal or local bureaucracies so he wanted to cut all over lapping areas since other levels of government already provided those services. He also proposed a freeze in raises for state employees (currently many state employees like prison guards are getting raises at twice the rate of inflation).

It really seems like McClintok’s focus was on cutting spending and not cutting taxes. The only fee decrease he spoke about, at least in the part I saw, was the decrease in vehicle registration fees but that can’t really be called cutting taxes for the rich.

	25-09-2003 21:24									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Jack_www that was a bold face lie. All income taxes in the US are progressive. The rich always pay higher taxes then those that dont make as much money.

In Illinois the income tax is 3.5% on everyone.

The rich may pay more in taxes, but they pay less as a percentage of their income.

	25-09-2003 21:27									#30
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Oerdin, the only problem I had with McClintock is that he did not put is detailed budget plan into an overall context - a vision - as articulated by Arnie. I think the vision guys need to be in charge while the detail guys need to be in the administration.

I also agree that McClintock said nothing about cutting taxes on the rich. He proposed ending the car tax - a tax on the poor and middle class. Anyone who says differently about McClintock is more like Cameo - existing in a Bush-bashing, anti-capitalist extremist fog, unable to distinguish between right and wrong, and who only wants his next drag on his drug of choice.