27-09-2003 14:18									#1
	Turn reports - do you read/use them? Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Spending already almost 2 hours creating the turn report for T120, having to replay it several times (due to finding fixes for various errors in what was reported in the turn thread as "played"), the extent of this is reaching the limit. I mean... I am happy to put together the pictures and post a nicely formatted report for everybody to look at, but spending 2 hours creating it is ridiculous... I do not have that much time, especially not every other day.

So, here is the question: do you read/use the turn reports? Is what I am doing useful? Which parts do you read/use regularly and which parts you would not miss?

	27-09-2003 14:24									#2
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I'm almost afraid to post here that I like looking at your turn reports.

I pay attention mostly to the growth of the cities and our commerce spent on Science, when we do something other that 40 turn research.

	27-09-2003 14:32									#3
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Do not be afraid, BF - if people actually use them, I will be more likely to invest even the increased amounts time into creating them, since I'll not consider it a waste of time...

...but next time you report about the turn, PLEASE, check if what you are posting is correct... T120 is one hell of a mess especially in the WF assignment section...

Last edited by vondrack on 27-09-2003 at 14:38

	27-09-2003 14:35									#4
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Yeah, I definitely like reading them. Probably the most useful thing is the map though, I like to see how we're doing at chopping down the jungle and so forth.

	27-09-2003 15:05									#5
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I'm sorry if that got messed up vondrack. ET had some last minute changes he wanted to make while I was in the middle of playing the turn. I thought I had correctly noted all the changes that he wanted.

	27-09-2003 15:09									#6
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I also read the reports, even if not always and not thoroughly. I'm especially interested in the save and the summary table.

However I agree that spending 2 hours every other day just to make such a report is too much of a sacrifice. I mean, I can imagine that you could find better/funnier ways of spending 2 hours of spare time. I'd understand it if you decided to take it easier with the reports.

	27-09-2003 15:23									#7
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I look at the reports as well, though mostly just to track scores and see if I notice anything out of the ordinary. Other than that, not really.

	27-09-2003 15:49									#8
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I look at the reports when I have time, but not all the time. I mainly just download the savegame so I can take a look at that. I know the maps help those who don't download the savegame, but most of us probably do.

	27-09-2003 16:29									#9
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vonD - what exactly makes you take the 2 hours? I always ensure I post EXACTLY what orders are carried out when I am the one who posts what is done - the few times that I perform the official orders.

If there is a way we can cut down on your time spent here - we will do it.

Although I rarely read through every order for a turn I miss (there are a few, being GMT+12), I ALWAYS consult the map whenever I miss a turn, so I certainly find this a big help.

	27-09-2003 16:53									#10
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I used to read/use the Turn Reports, but then they started to lag behind, so I started reading the individuals turn threads.

	27-09-2003 17:21									#11
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt vonD - what exactly makes you take the 2 hours? I always ensure I post EXACTLY what orders are carried out when I am the one who posts what is done - the few times that I perform the official orders. If there is a way we can cut down on your time spent here - we will do it. Although I rarely read through every order for a turn I miss (there are a few, being GMT+12), I ALWAYS consult the map whenever I miss a turn, so I certainly find this a big help.

Perhaps T120 was an exception... but I spent quite some time figuring out what happened to the WF in our core cities (posted reassignments were contradictory, leading to tiles being worked by more than one city at the same time). I eventually had to trash the almost replayed (and processed) save, load the next one, and check where exactly the labourers were at the beginning of Turn 121, later having to replay the whole turn again (and due to my stupidity, I had to do this twice...).

BTW, Tripoli did not get reassigned on Turn 119 as planned/reported in the turn thread (we were not working the iron hill)... dunno if E_T knows that.

	27-09-2003 18:05									#12
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I find them very interesting and useful, but I also agree that 2 hours is a bit too much, so if you stop doing them I will understand

	27-09-2003 18:18									#13
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I don't download the saves much at all- extremely rarely in fact. I rely almost exclusively on turn reports.

	27-09-2003 18:29									#14
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I use that a lot, to compile Demographics Score charts and Historical Log.

But I agree with everybody here, 2 hrs is a lot of time.

	27-09-2003 18:44									#15
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Is it worth spending the time writing out what happened to the WF? I know I don't really bother reading that bit, does anyone else?

	27-09-2003 18:46									#16
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Khmmm... I can see that people are using them, at least some of you. So... I will chill a bit and hope that reports like the one for T120 will be just exceptions...

I am not quitting, at least not now.

As for the turn report lag... I am doing all I can, but as even "simple" reports take at least an hour to create, it is getting increasingly difficult for me to "smuggle" this activity inbetween my business chores throughout the day. It must usually wait until evening or night - and if I am tired, then I sometimes go to bed instead of firing up PhotoShop/Excel. I will do my best to keep them up to date, so that they are useful to as many people as possible.

	27-09-2003 18:48									#17
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I agree with Adrian Hon, does anyone actually scrutinize those WF placements in the turn reports?

I know that E_T needs records of that, but I assume he has his own records, no?

	27-09-2003 19:21									#18
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The most important part of them to me is the map.

I look at the map at least every 2 or 3 days. I look at the other screenshots (cities, scores, stats) about half of those times.

I only read the actual actions taken when something momentous happens (war/city founded/contact), and then only really for the stuff that is pertinent to that action.

-You better believe I'll read the whole thing during the GCA war though, in particular I'll be looking for a list of engagements and their outcomes. Suggestion: Bold any attacks and list the outcome on the same line.

	27-09-2003 19:46									#19
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I read them all the time to keep track of what’s happening since my Internet connection is slow and downloading a save would take too long. So I hope you can still keep doing them.

I look at the maps and the table of cities that has the builds. I don’t often look at the list of where all the units went (especially not the workers), though with the war starting I will pay more attention to that. However, if Trip keeps us up-to-date with the war news, we might not need the information to be repeated in the turn report.

	27-09-2003 20:20									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos I agree with Adrian Hon, does anyone actually scrutinize those WF placements in the turn reports? I know that E_T needs records of that, but I assume he has his own records, no?

THe thing with the WF placements and everything is that effects the growth/production numbers in Vondrack's spreadsheet that he posts, so in essence, they are important.

I guess the question in that sense is: How many people pay attention to that spreadsheet? BigFree does. I glance at it sometimes, but I see that Trip, E_T, BF and others are extremely capable of simming/getting their own results without these spreadsheets.

But then again, if we want the updated turn maps to show the correct # of turns for city production, these WF changes have to be updated anyway...

	27-09-2003 22:54									#21
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WB is correct - I do not see how I could leave the WF changes out without significantly lowering the information value of the whole report.

	27-09-2003 23:01									#22
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quote: Originally posted by vondrack BTW, Tripoli did not get reassigned on Turn 119 as planned/reported in the turn thread (we were not working the iron hill)... dunno if E_T knows that.

I did notice it the next turn.... and had it corrected, but I just hope that the damage is repairable to my careful plans....

As for the reports, I look at them, from time to time, just to track a few things I can't do quickly with my computer.

And as for time spent doing things for this game, part of being a team is that we choose to spend our time to do things for the team, even though they aren't sometime apprechiated as much as we had originally thought. But then, there are still those people who value the work that we have made and the time that we have spent, for these things. The one thing that I had found out a long time ago, is they aren't verbally appreciated (as much as we would all like) until they are no longer available. Keep that in mind.

E_T

	27-09-2003 23:59									#23
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I tend to read them only for the maps and to get an idea of what our cities are building and when our research will be completed.

--Togas

	28-09-2003 00:01									#24
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The turn reports are very informative, especially for those of us, ahem, who are less active

	28-09-2003 02:12									#25
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quote: Originally posted by dejon I used to read/use the Turn Reports, but then they started to lag behind, so I started reading the individuals turn threads.

Me too. Except when I need to research something for Area X - then it's nice to look back at previous turns.

	28-09-2003 02:46									#26
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I use the turn reports

	28-09-2003 16:43									#27
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OK, Turn 121 was an even worse nightmare... I can understand why, because it was a turning point with 70+ actions being carried out, but still...

This is by no means a rant - I am not angry or anything, in fact I am writing this in a very calm mood. It is a late response to MWIA's question about what it is taking so long to put a report together (almost 3 hours this time).

1) scattering the information about the actions carried out into several posts - in this case, the first and second posts of the turn thread, then Trip's military record, then the post with 'everything as planned, except', and then the screenshots. It's unbelievably difficult not to miss anything, having to constantly skip back and forth, check things at several places.

2) not mentioning the paths followed. Saying 'X attacked the GCA sword at Catcher 8-9' does not include the information WHERE the unit was attacked FROM - I have to look into the screenshots (and sometimes, if I don't realize there was more than one way to attack enemy, I have to replay the turn from scratch, since the units end up on incorrect tiles.

3) saying 'the rest of units in AGA/AGB moved to...'; first: with AGA/AGB defined in the first post using numbers, while having units only named ingame, it's next to impossible to know which unit belongs to which army. Solution: implement the numbering ingame, too - drop the "...the Medieval Infantry" part, and replace with "M13...", like in "M13 Beta". Second: the best trick to force me to replay the whole turn is to say that the whole of the AGA/AGB moved somewhere and immediately follow it by two units being sent elsewhere. What happens? I move the rest of the armies somewhere and then feel like putting a bullet through my head, since on the next line, I find out that some units were supposed to go elsewhere... you can imagine that with a turn of 70 odd moves, it's a nightmare...

There is something I barely dare to propose, since I very well know how much time the turnplayers/Consuls have to devote to this game, but... it works smoothly for Lego, so perhaps it might work here, too.

Whoever plays the turn, fire up notepad a make a note of every single action carried out. It would be okay to jot down only very brief, perhaps even a bit cryptical notes, like:

1. GWT counteroffered Rep+WM, acc, sent
2. inv Catcher, Girl
3. Poly, Ming, Nana start mercs
4. declared war on GCA
5. PoA 8-8-8, ffy all
6. Exp 8-8-8, both swords 4
7. BFI 2-6-2
8. vonH 9-8-9-8
9. MZ 6
10. Ghengis 8-4, ffy

...

45. Poly WF 5 to 8, 13 to 18

etc.

It takes less time than you might think. It would cost the turnplayer less than 15 minutes to put this together even for a turn like this (with every line consuming ~10-15 seconds) and save me as much as 2+ hours of very laborious work. But then again, I do know very well that the Consuls are carrying a burden big enough as it is, so it is up to them to decide if they can/want/are willing do that or not - I will not feel ignored or anything if they keep posting the reports the way they do... I just thought I would explain what it is that makes creating the official turn reports so time consuming.

Thank you for listening (and may the Force be with the armies of Apolyton).

	28-09-2003 17:02									#28
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I especially look at the screenshots, which are very needed.

Shifting of WF, moving of workers and other minor changes I dont really care about. But building of a new improvement or unit and unit attacks, wins and casualties are very important.

	28-09-2003 17:48									#29
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quote: Originally posted by vondrack Whoever plays the turn, fire up notepad a make a note of every single action carried out. It would be okay to jot down only very brief, perhaps even a bit cryptical notes, like: 1. GWT counteroffered Rep+WM, acc, sent 2. inv Catcher, Girl 3. Poly, Ming, Nana start mercs 4. declared war on GCA 5. PoA 8-8-8, ffy all 6. Exp 8-8-8, both swords 4 7. BFI 2-6-2 8. vonH 9-8-9-8 9. MZ 6 10. Ghengis 8-4, ffy ... 45. Poly WF 5 to 8, 13 to 18 etc. It takes less time than you might think. It would cost the turnplayer less than 15 minutes to put this together even for a turn like this (with every line consuming ~10-15 seconds) and save me as much as 2+ hours of very laborious work. But then again, I do know very well that the Consuls are carrying a burden big enough as it is, so it is up to them to decide if they can/want/are willing do that or not - I will not feel ignored or anything if they keep posting the reports the way they do... I just thought I would explain what it is that makes creating the official turn reports so time consuming. Thank you for listening (and may the Force be with the armies of Apolyton).

I used to do something less anal like that in the SPDG. When you have something on the order of 60-80 military units to move each turn, it's a pain in the arse to keep track of what happens to each one, but there were dividends. I'll vouch for this being relatively easy to do in chat, since you're basically just jotting down what you are doing as you are doing it as opposed to trying to remember things or look through turnchat logs after the fact.

I had originally started with just recoding major events like FAM deals, but eventually got in the habit of recording nearly everything because it was relatively easy to do while running the chat and made record-keeping and reporting on what took place in a chat far easier.

It DOES take extra time over the course of a chat, which means you're spending everyone's time. But, in the case of the ISDG, if that's saving vondrack hours of his time, it might very well be worth it

	28-09-2003 18:29									#30
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Uk. Sorry vonD. We are having a bit of a tough time ATM, with nye away, my Net problems earlier in the day, and maybe 20 in the chatroom, with BF playing quickly, then rushing off to work!

I am now looking over the orders, but due to my absence at the critical time I could not do what I was hoping to with that mess - keep a set of orders exactly as you suggest. I agree it DOES work wonders - it takes a little extra time, but you can follow things through perfectly well, and you don't have to worry about missing anything at the end of it all. Keep this in mind - everyone who may end up as a Consul some day - maybe even in the upcoming election for nye's position.