12-10-2003 09:37									#181
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sits wating patiently to here reports of his first seesiion

	12-10-2003 17:55									#182
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Raz, you have at least two cities.
Thebes is the best city in the world.
And I gave you 2 techs (monarchy and writing, haven't extorted anything).
Deity claims he gave you 2 techs too. But he won't tell us which two.

We left you some room for expansion (not much, you have to hurry though) and I'll give you map making so you can expand to the Americas. First you need a port, though.

Good luck, you are going to need it, cause Azande slavers would like nothing more than to eliminate your week civ!

	12-10-2003 18:07									#183
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Deity, you can at least throw in the jungle. Raz really needs some quality expansion space to catch up with the rest of us!

Ozzy, donate Italy to Raz!

Deity, donate Somalia, Eritrea, Madagascar to Raz!

	12-10-2003 19:07									#184
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deity is always taking advantage of the AI or poor players near him



Just wish a group of guys that love this type of game could have waited till at least the person who inspired this one starting again was actually confirmed as a starter rather than just tearing aahead with a start.

The Egyptians were always going to struggle given their start and all 7 civs in the same land masses .

I will say i am dissapointed but providing the stories are posted i will continue, i already totaly lost interest in anything else

	12-10-2003 20:03									#185
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The people of Egypt are so behind they really need some help asap!

I suggest we all donate a settler to them. Ozzy can donate just Italy (no settler) and Deity should donate a city

I shall donate one settler to them regardless of what the others decide

	12-10-2003 20:29									#186
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lets get some pics of the current world layout , will need to get into character for some stroy posting myself

	13-10-2003 02:21									#187
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I'll take whatever corrective measures for the feasablity of your civ that's required before the next session. I see no need in over burdening a key person who will bring detication to the game. All agreed?

	13-10-2003 02:25									#188
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quote: Originally posted by ljcvetko Deity, you can at least throw in the jungle. Raz really needs some quality expansion space to catch up with the rest of us! Ozzy, donate Italy to Raz! Deity, donate Somalia, Eritrea, Madagascar to Raz!

The Serbs are quite generous with other's territory.

I think Deity has been very restrained in his handling of his backwards northern neighbors. The Tartars, Serbs and Indians however have quickly gobbled up the mideast, which is rightfully Egyptian territory. And one of the few locations of any worth in the whole of N. Africa and Mideast. If anything, these cities should be donated. I'm sure the Chinese, English, and that African civ whose name I never remember, can provide some compensation for the three civs giving up cities.

	13-10-2003 02:32									#189
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I was thinking more along time lines of populating the arabian penisula, nile, and northern africa with a few starter cities to at least give Raz some kind of core area, as well as some mandate for the eventual release of Tigris river valley....but that must be worked out with those players.

I'd be willing to trade my northernteer city of Da Bai Ninja to the tartars if they were willing to cede their local city to Raz.

Or I can just blop some settlers on the map for Raz if we don't want to cooperate, its not like he wouldn't have made them himself if he was there.

	13-10-2003 04:00									#190
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How about this as an idea. The Tartars, Indians, and Serbs turn over their mideast cities to Raz. This will give him a respectable amount of cities, 5, with which he can get back into the game.

The 3 other players each give 100 gold to the 3 players who gave up their cities to more evenly distribute the burden. Plus we all pledge to not build the Pyramids and save that for Raz. With a land of desert, a population boosting wonder like the Pyramids I think is essential. Plus it is very much in character for the Egyptians.

I know it is asking a lot of the Indians, Tartars and Serbs to give up a city. But jeeze, y'all just swarmed down there seemingly to take advantage of the weakened Egyptian player. I kept saying to give them room but it was like a free for all. Not fair at all for Raz. Plus you will each get 100 gold for giving up that city, which I think is more than generous and ample compensation.

What does everyone think? This should get Raz in the game very nicely.

	13-10-2003 07:24									#191
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Here is a suggested bail out plan for AI suckyness.

It will give Raz 5 cities and put him in contention.

Attachment: plan.bmp
This has been downloaded 9 time(s).

	13-10-2003 11:16									#192
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ok ok hang on guys....

lets not get too generous, i have to take some responsibilty for not actually managing to get the correct software.

However i am greatful for your efforts and will accept whatever you throw my way.

I hereby apologise for being a bit miffed for the ations taken against the stupid AI and newbie player.

now to some really bad news, my mother is going to hospital this week for major surgery and the family is all expected to be there for her on the sunday. Can we if at all possible take a week break and allow me this time to be there, again i accept if you find a good sub, empress if you read this can you play?? i dont want the ai or any other non Diplo player to paly my civ.

Thanks again guys , sorry for this problems with the start of our great game

	13-10-2003 11:59									#193
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Frank, your ideas are great and simple. Yes, add those settlers!

Nobody loses a city and Raz gets a couple.

Maybe we should throw in a few more settlers.

	13-10-2003 12:02									#194
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ok a few suggestions....

amy one able to play Monday night US/Tuesday morning Aus

i will be unavaialble from Tuesday night onwaqrds as have to fly to perth 3000kn away.

as for game i think the expansion of the Blues an dpurples into mid east was a bit unfair and if they would remove it would be appreciated but not necessary.

The extra settlers, provided they are Non-units will do the fix.

Finally got a patch from our great serb player so i am finally able to view the mes si left with

	14-10-2003 04:26									#195
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Sorry to hear about your mom Raz. Hope she comes out of it alright. I'd be ok with taking a week off. I think we were all thirsting to sink our teeth into this game rather than postpone the start. Now we've got something to work with, so I at least would be alright with taking a week off, so you can rejoin us. Another session like the one you had could seriously kill the Egyptians.

quote: Originally posted by Rasputin as for game i think the expansion of the Blues an dpurples into mid east was a bit unfair and if they would remove it would be appreciated but not necessary.

For this reason I think it'd be best if the nations in the regions who took advantage of Raz' situation give up their cities. I made an offer to distribute the burden to all players, but honestly it was very unfair of you all to plop cities down there knowing full well that civ was AI and that Raz would be back for the next session. I consider this as bad as, if not worse than exploiting tech off an AI player. It hurts far more.

Its not just a matter of cities for Raz. He'll certainly be able to build more cities when he gets back, but its also a matter of long term territory. He missed the chance to stake out borders like the rest of us did, and with such very poor land in N. Africa and the mideast, Raz is very screwed long term. That rare fertile area by the Tigris & Euphrates is one of only 2 in the entire area Raz could be expected to lay claim to (the other being the Nile).

I said many times in the game not to squeeze Raz in the mideast and leave him room. But instead players took advantage of the situation and that upsets me. In all fairness I or Frank shouldn't be penalized for the greed of those players who built in the ME, but I'm prepared to give up that gold (not a small sum at all) to alieviate their burden. However this is a mess of your own making, by taking away half of Raz' good land you should feel some pinch in any correction to occur.

	14-10-2003 04:46									#196
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Shoulda just pushed back the start date

	14-10-2003 14:17									#197
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quote: The Serbs are quite generous with other's territory. If anything, these cities should be donated

quote: For this reason I think it'd be best if the nations in the regions who took advantage of Raz' situation give up their cities. I made an offer to distribute the burden to all players, but honestly it was very unfair of you all to plop cities down there knowing full well that civ was AI and that Raz would be back for the next session. I consider this as bad as, if not worse than exploiting tech off an AI player. It hurts far more.

We knew he'd be back? Hardly. And when I finally did build there, the ai had only 2 cities and I thought it would be ridiculous for anyone to take that civ at that point. I figured he'd take the Tartars since Winzity was a sub, but maybe he wants to play them for all I know.

quote: Its not just a matter of cities for Raz. He'll certainly be able to build more cities when he gets back, but its also a matter of long term territory. He missed the chance to stake out borders like the rest of us did, and with such very poor land in N. Africa and the mideast, Raz is very screwed long term.

He was screwed by the mapmaker And he isn't alone, the Tartars have piss poor land and I'm not exactly living in the land of milk and honey and both of us are screwed by being stuck in the middle. Europe and China have the best land... I had to build ships and travel for centuries to find decent land and I have to fight barbs for it. Hell, the Chinese have built 5-6 squares from my Capital.

For the record, I did not build there until very late in the session AFTER the Egyptian sub had left, AFTER I learned the Egyptians had 2 cities, AFTER the Tartars had built there, and AFTER I reached the conclusion Egypt was a lost cause and we'd be playing with 6 civs... Btw, I told you guys (or was it just Deity) that it was unwise to start with 6 people because of the ai but my warning was ignored...

Now, I'll donate my 1 city there for $100 or I can quit the game to make room for Raz to play the Indians and let the ai keep playing the Egyptians. I suppose the former would be the best solution since a weak ai in Egypt would give the S Africans an advantage by effectively giving him all of Africa... But you guys insisted on playing with an ai in control, not me. I'm And let's face it, the Tartars and Indians built there near the end of the session and the ai wasn't building cities so the Egyptians were screwed, not by us, but by the mapmaker and allowing the ai to play them... Like Raz said, we shouldn't have started without him...

Here's an idea, the Tartars and Indians donate our cities on the Tigris to Egypt and the mapmaker can plop down a few settlers for the Egyptians and the Chinese give the Indians their westernmost city, the one closest to the Indian capital and the Serbs give the Tartars their easternmost city above the Black Sea. That would help balance out the discrepancy in land alotment...

How does that sound?

	14-10-2003 15:08									#198
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Here's an idea, the Tartars and Indians donate our cities on the Tigris to Egypt and the mapmaker can plop down a few settlers for the Egyptians and the Chinese give the Indians their westernmost city, the one closest to the Indian capital and the Serbs give the Tartars their easternmost city above the Black Sea. That would help balance out the discrepancy in land alotment... How does that sound?

I can give settlers, not land. I'm already left with no room for further expansion and my territory is fairly small, so I can't spare a city.

Why not add those five settlers according to Frank's plan? Raz would have 7 cities then and I vow to give him a settler or a city in the Americas as soon as I get there.

	14-10-2003 18:04									#199
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Holy Cow! I just caught up with all this stuff!

I agree with adding settlers for Raz's Egyptians as per Frank's plan, and maybe a few more. The civ will play with whoever shows if Raz is not available. We just keep Raz in touch with any subs so that Raz can weave the story at least

I'll maintain my restrained borders as posted but the Congo jungles is Azande sacred ground...

I don't blame Tartars or Indians or Serbs for expanding as they did but I take ozzy's point. But we have to accept that all of us are going to make different judgements about this kind of stuff during play. I don't like artificially giving cities or land. What evolved in the game represents real life...

West Africa and the islands are still good for Raz's civ anyway - maybe an extra settler or two over there.

I gave the Egyptians two techs but just racking my brain as to what they were. I think one was Pottery; and I did trade techs when Art was subbing I think - so much was happening!

	15-10-2003 03:20									#200
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So are we ceding Egypt the ME cities and giving him ~5 settlers with others in the game giving the Tartars and Indians a $100? I don't care one way or the other...

	15-10-2003 09:44									#201
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If there's no objection I'm just going to mod in the 5 settlers for Raz. Whatever other deals concearning the T and E river area can be worked out either in game or else where.

We all knew Egypt was a weaker position from the start. Even Raz said he didn't care that much. Played well its ok, played by the AI its......well crap. Anyway, we throw Raz some settlers, get his city count up he can maybe get some allies and tech if at least he has a core of cities.

	15-10-2003 14:07									#202
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ok, reaaly sorry this all happened, i was prepared to play the egyptians in the desert because i like the story i had, but i sort of did expect if i was playing that my first settlers were heading to mid east but AI and sub didnt go there . had a quick look at the save and he reaaly messed up but that ok. whateever you guys deem fair i wil laccept. but please we must try and think of everyone here. The HOTW2 was reaaly stuffed a few times when AI palyed. Are we really that desperate for games that we cant wait a week if someone is busy, i know this game will go for a long time anyway, but lets remeber it is a game and it is fun so lets play it that way and not play at all costs when someone cant make it.

Well thats my .02c worth.

if you do paly this week with a sub for me please explain that they need to contact me.

Thanks guys, you are the best to paly with and that is the only reason i came back at all from my 12 month hibernation.

	15-10-2003 19:04									#203
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another suggestion is to just replay the first session.

Just throwing that out there, its still early enough in the game where we could do that. I still strongly suggest we go with my plan, but this is an option as well.

	15-10-2003 22:06									#204
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ok guys here is the link to The NEWLY created HOTW4.0 Website

http://www.leopardsjafl.com/hotw4/


let me know what you think

	16-10-2003 01:32									#205
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Excellent work Raz. Very good to see all the posts saved in there too. If anyone was really ambitious they could do all of HOTW2 and 3.

And whats the deal with the "lesser known HOTW3"? It was far better known than HOTW1. Lots of players from HOTW2 were in it too: Prom, Frank, Chris, & I. Plus it had amazing techincal innovation, and was pretty fun while it lasted. Don't dis HOTW3.

The page is excellent though. For that work you deffinately deserve some cities in the ME. Keep up the good work!

	16-10-2003 02:44									#206
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Here is an updated scenario file with the 5 additional settlers added per the picture I uploaded somewhere up the thread. The host for next week will need to download it and put it in the HOTW4 scenario folder.

Attachment: howt4_v2.scn
This has been downloaded 1 time(s).

	16-10-2003 04:07									#207
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quote: Originally posted by OzzyKP another suggestion is to just replay the first session. Just throwing that out there, its still early enough in the game where we could do that. I still strongly suggest we go with my plan, but this is an option as well.

Not a good idea ozzy. From my experience you have to keep moving forward. There are bound to be other availability problems in the future. It will never happen that we get 7 humans to play every week. If we break for any week the game will fold. I recommend we play on from where we are and keep playing every week that 5 or 6 players minimum show.

As Frank says, any city ceding is not to be contrived but is part of the in character diplo negotiations between leaders (i.e. ceding a city is for diplomatic advantage only) - not pressure from the out of game players.

Don't forget to fix the Oracle expiry as agreed = Ind ?

	16-10-2003 04:16									#208
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That site is brilliant Raz! Well bloody done mate.

Can't find any typos yet...

Can you change Western Azadine to Western Azande on the first story page - I made a mistake.

The original Azande are in the Congo jungles and have not yet built a city.
The Azadine offshoot have built all the cities in East Africa.

	16-10-2003 12:45									#209
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DEITY IS OUR NEWEST EMPEROR !!!!!!!!!

CONGRATULATIONS!!!!!!!

	16-10-2003 20:52									#210
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Well spammed