29-09-2003 08:40									#31
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quote: Originally posted by cinch Many Easterners come out West or to Ontario or B.C. for work. As I said, just not ALL of them.

I know many do, evidently not enough.

After all, Calgary is the fastest growing city in Canada year after year.

quote: Oh, yes, I know, you've lectured me on this before, but I maintain that no matter how ironclad Klein's schemes are, he can't insure perpetual Albertan dominance.

No kidding, but with all of the legacy funds he's installed for the province we've got economic shields from boom/busts, as well as the lowest debt load by far out of any province in Canada.

quote: Generalizatios, Ho! 1. Again, many Maritimers do move to find work. 2. Equalization payments don't just support lazy slobs; even the people who do have work aren't raking in the big bucks, for the simple reason that the anchor industry isn't quite as lucrative as Alberta's.

Why not? Newfoundland makes assloads of money off oil now that Hibernia works, the problem is it's just a shithole of a province that can't figure out how to manage its province.

Same reason B.C. and Quebec suck ass provincially, they're left-wing dreamer provinces who need a lesson in how to run your government. There's no reason whatsoever those two provinces should suck as much as they do economically.

quote: Yes.

That'll be the day.

	29-09-2003 08:44									#32
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The Idiot - Stan Rogers, 1981

I often take these night shift walks
when the foreman's not around.
I turn my back on the cooling stacks
and make for open ground.
Far out beyond the tank farm fence
where the gas flare makes no sound,
I forget the stink and I always think
back to that Eastern town.

I remember back six years ago,
this Western life I chose.
And every day, the news would say
some factory's going to close.
Well, I could have stayed to take the Dole,
but I'm not one of those.
I take nothing free,
and that makes me an idiot, I suppose.

So I bid farewell to the Eastern town
I never more will see;
But work I must so I eat this dust
and breathe refinery.
Oh I miss the green and the woods and streams
and I don't like cowboy clothes;
But I like being free
and that makes me an idiot I suppose.

So come all you fine young fellows
who've been beaten to the ground.
This western life's no paradise,
but it's better than lying down.
Oh, the streets aren't clean, and there's nothing green, and the hills are dirty brown,
But the government Dole will rot your soul
back there in your home town.

So bid farewell to the Eastern town
you never more will see.
There's self-respect and a steady cheque in this refinery.
You will miss the green and the woods and streams
and the dust will fill your nose.
But you'll be free, and just like me, an idiot, I suppose.

	29-09-2003 08:51									#33
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I don't get what he's talking about in that song, because last time I checked Calgary was rated as the cleanest major city in the world.

	29-09-2003 08:55									#34
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quote: After all, Calgary is the fastest growing city in Canada year after year.

Well, there you go. Also, you can understand how Maritimers might be getting conflicted messages over the years, what with the man who once said "go home, Eastern bums and criminals!" being PREMIER nowadays...

Klein Talkin'

quote: No kidding, but with all of the legacy funds he's installed for the province we've got economic shields from boom/busts, as well as the lowest debt load by far out of any province in Canada.

Well, maybe... or maybe the sustainability fund's just another way for Ralphie to hand out people-pacifiers & rebates, while fudging the paperwork on other fronts...

Neil Waugh's column on the subject (and Waugh's a conservative!)

"Next up for the mercurial Mason was the natural gas rebate program that Energy Minister Murray Smith was trying to claim was only possible because of the newly established sustainability fund.

"I wonder how long it took them to come up with that one," Mason winked.

"When the price of gas goes up their revenues go through the roof," he continued. "It's built in."

Mason called the rebate "a step in the right direction for the wrong reasons." "

*******

	29-09-2003 09:00									#35
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quote: Originally posted by cinch Well, there you go. Also, you can understand how Maritimers might be getting conflicted messages over the years, what with the man who once said "go home, Eastern bums and criminals!" being PREMIER nowadays... Klein Talkin'

Oh, give me a break. Whenever somebody brings up that quote it's clear they've run out of ammo.

It was taken out of context, and twisted by the media.

He was talking about the rise of petty crimes, mostly in the downtown core (thieves, muggings, etc) that were, statistically, homeless people who came from the east (95% of bank robberies, etc.). So he made it clear he wanted the Eastern "bums and creeps" (Klein was always so blunt! ) to stay home. He wasn't saying all Easterns are bums and creeps, as he's clarified himself hundreds of times and anyone with basic reasoning ability could discern...

He even said he'd welcome homeless people in Calgary for a few weeks to see what they can find for work, at government expense, but if they can't find any work and start mugging senior citizens, robbing stores, etc, to "get the hell out of town".

	29-09-2003 09:06									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Oh, give me a break. Whenever somebody brings up that quote it's clear they've run out of ammo.

I didn't know there was a rule about this similar to that "whoever brings up Nazis first loses" thingamajigger.

Anyway, I still think it set things back a little in the whole "Easterners coming West to find work" arena. I mean, it's almost circular logic: No work out easst---> go west---> can't find work out west? ---> go back east---> can't find work out east? ---> go west...

But it's clear this discussion is running out of steam, so, uh...

Flames suck!

	29-09-2003 09:09									#37
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quote: Everyone leaches off those two provinces, and it ain't helping the other ones get anywhere.

Actually, I believe BC refused to take the transfer payments, because Mr. Campbell feels that a government can become dependent upon them. I know that our province sucks right now, but once we fix a decade of NDP mismanagement, then we might have things back on track.

Of course, it doesn't help getting forest fires, the lack of a lumber agreement with the US. It's a darn shame that we don't link those two commodities, of oil and lumber. Then we might get some action.

Give us time. We'll get back on the high end again.

	29-09-2003 10:04									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Actually, I believe BC refused to take the transfer payments, because Mr. Campbell feels that a government can become dependent upon them. I know that our province sucks right now, but once we fix a decade of NDP mismanagement, then we might have things back on track.

Really? I thought BC isn't taking any transfer payments because it has gone above the threshhold and no longer qualifies for the payments.

As for decades of NDP mismangement, try decades of Liberal, NDP and Socred mismangement. BC voters have never been particularly adept at electing smart politicians (and they only have themselves to blame). BC voters need to pay attention to what their neighbours in Alberta, Saskatchewan, and Manitoba have done.

	29-09-2003 10:09									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Give me a break...Alberta and Ontario are the only two "have" provinces in Canada, and it's been that way for decades. Everyone leaches off those two provinces, and it ain't helping the other ones get anywhere. Transfer payments are bullshit and I'd not shed a tear if they vanished. Why should well-off regions continue to waste money in useless regions like Newfoundland? I'd be happy to help fund those people to relocate, I just hate seeing money go down that black hole because some *******s don't wanna move to where the jobs are.

I'm not going to try to explain the fiscal mechanics of the transfer payments, but as for "wasting money"...

Transfer payments allow poorer provinces to provide the same level of education and healthcare services as richer provinces. From an economic point of view, these are vital services for ensuring the people are able to compete in the workforce.

So if you cancel the transfer payments, then people in poorer provinces will be even more unlikely to get a job.

Besides, if you cancel the transfer payments, then the unemployed in poorer provinces will simply move to the richer provinces like Alberta where they will become unemployed "Eastern bums".

	29-09-2003 11:54									#40
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quote: I thought BC isn't taking any transfer payments because it has gone above the threshhold and no longer qualifies for the payments.

He makes the dependency argument, so I suppose it has some merit.

The problem is that we are trying to do the Klein revolution without massive oil revenues, a dubious prospect, but a necessary one given the lack of business investement compared with Alberta.

	29-09-2003 12:56									#41
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BC has massive natural wealth, timber, minerals, hydro. oil and gas if you wanted to develop it. BC used to be a have province. No reason it could not be again. It is up to the people there to decide what they want.

Transfer payments from taxation is a fine idea. Pillaging an industry particular to one province or another for the sake of transfers to others is not such a fine idea.

	29-09-2003 13:17									#42
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Transfer payments from taxation is a fine idea. Pillaging an industry particular to one province or another for the sake of transfers to others is not such a fine idea.

And BC has been particulary good at pillaging trees. The industry is supposd to pay fees for every tree it cuts, and to limit cuts to a sustainable level, but no one knows exactly how many trees are being cut. The Socreds turned a blind eye to the problem, so did the NDP and the "Liberals" are following the same blind path.

Add to that the practice of chopping trees into cheap 2x4s while denying the secondary industries adequate sources of high quality wood.

BC is a wasted wonderland (pun intended).

	29-09-2003 14:24									#43
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quote: And BC has been particulary good at pillaging trees. The industry is supposd to pay fees for every tree it cuts, and to limit cuts to a sustainable level, but no one knows exactly how many trees are being cut. The Socreds turned a blind eye to the problem, so did the NDP and the "Liberals" are following the same blind path.

Hardly. Treeplanters are maybe 6 months behind the loggers. The problem is not the available resources, but the horrible deals for lumber. We can hardly ship enough wood, and we have to pay a 30% duty for all wood shipped to the US.

Now, how prosperous would Alberta be if they had a 30% duty on all oil and gas exports to the US?

quote: Add to that the practice of chopping trees into cheap 2x4s while denying the secondary industries adequate sources of high quality wood. BC is a wasted wonderland (pun intended).

Yes, that's been a common complaint that we do not produce enough 'value-added' projects. We're working on it. Since we are so good at shipping 2x4s it is going to take time to change.

Anyhow, we are just starting to tap our oil and gas reserves, particularly off the coast of BC. Just a matter of whether the treehuggers will let us use these resources.

	29-09-2003 14:26									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Give me a break...Alberta and Ontario are the only two "have" provinces in Canada, and it's been that way for decades. Everyone leaches off those two provinces, and it ain't helping the other ones get anywhere. Transfer payments are bullshit and I'd not shed a tear if they vanished. Why should well-off regions continue to waste money in useless regions like Newfoundland? I'd be happy to help fund those people to relocate, I just hate seeing money go down that black hole because some *******s don't wanna move to where the jobs are.

Why don't we (Americans) ever have conversations like this about, say, West Virginia or Arkansas?

	29-09-2003 20:04									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Asher If by kept the country from splitting apart you mean fueling western alienation, then sure.

You should have lived here long enough to realise the two fundamental truths of Canadian politics:

1) Unless they do something really stupid, the Liberals win.

2) For the most part, the Western Provinces simply don't matter in Canadian politics. Quebec and Ontario are in charge and it's staying that way. Ralph Klein threatens to separate, but they are empty threats, since it isn't going to happen.

	29-09-2003 20:19									#46
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Back in the day, :understatement:I wasnt a big fan of Pierre :understatement:. But I can say from first-hand knowledge that while he was an arrogant bastard he was no fool. Nearly 20 years later though he's a shining beacon compared to the mediocre lot that have been PM since him. As for the effects of his policies, I dont have to live with them so ----- no comment.

	29-09-2003 21:12									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Hardly. Treeplanters are maybe 6 months behind the loggers.

Uh huh. And that statistic is from whom? The forestry industry, which of course would never lie, or the government that has cut its workforce by 30%?

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi The problem is not the available resources, but the horrible deals for lumber. We can hardly ship enough wood, and we have to pay a 30% duty for all wood shipped to the US. Yes, that's been a common complaint that we do not produce enough 'value-added' projects. We're working on it. Since we are so good at shipping 2x4s it is going to take time to change.

Here's the thing I don't understand. Why do we want to ship cheap, low quality 2x4s when we could be using the lumber to manufacturer high quality products that involve create more jobs. During the Trudeau era, 30 years ago, we complained about our economy being too focused on the primary industry - just hewers of wood. We're still caught in this trap.

In the early 1990s, I interviewed a guy who owned a factory that made window frames for export to Japan. He had to shut down his factory for two months during the summer because he couldn't get enough high quality lumber. Why? Because people in B.C. think it is a great thing to ship cheap 2x4s to the US.

Last I heard, he was still having the same problems.

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Anyhow, we are just starting to tap our oil and gas reserves, particularly off the coast of BC. Just a matter of whether the treehuggers will let us use these resources.

Oh great. Another primary industry. And with the way the government manages our forests, we know they'll do such a fine job with oil off the coast.

Well, at least it will create secondary jobs -- oil spill clean up crews.

	30-09-2003 02:11									#48
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You Canadians have to get over your regionalist BS, You guys are acting like the southern US just before our civil war, You don't see us Minnesotans getting mad because other states make some $$$ off our iron. Why do canadian provences think they are independent counties? You guys need to give your national government more teeth so you don't have this bickering.

	30-09-2003 03:15									#49
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quote: Uh huh. And that statistic is from whom? The forestry industry, which of course would never lie, or the government that has cut its workforce by 30%?

Personal experience. I worked as a treeplanter, and this is what my boss said when I asked him this question.

We planted one cutblock in August that had been cut earlier that summer.

quote: We're still caught in this trap.

Like I said, we have massive investment in making 2x4s quickly and efficiently. It's going to take time to redirect some of this investment to other areas.

quote: Well, at least it will create secondary jobs -- oil spill clean up crews.

Funny how most of the opposition comes not from the locals who are starved for jobs, but from affluent Vancouverites who have never stepped foot in the bush.

If we have hibernia off Newfoundland, why can't we do the same in BC?

quote: You guys need to give your national government more teeth so you don't have this bickering.

Expressed bickering is better than hidden resentment. We just want to improve things within Canada rather than to leave.

	30-09-2003 03:24									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Sending tanks to Quebec to deal with the FLQ. Invoking the notwithstanding clause to do so.

a) One of the sadder days for Canadian democracy
b) You don't know what you're talking about, because:

i) The notwithstanding clause has never been invoked by the federal government; it has been invoked once by the Saskatchewan government and twice by the Quebec government

ii) The notwithstanding clause didn't exist in 1970

c) Assuming you mean the War Powers Act, then please explain what other legal justification for sending the Canadian military against Canadian civilians he could have conjured up. The War Powers Act excuse was flimsy enough

As for the man himself, I'll give him a for most everything except the October Crisis. This includes the NEP, as it's always a worthwhile cause to annoy Westerners.

	30-09-2003 03:27									#51
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk Why don't we (Americans) ever have conversations like this about, say, West Virginia or Arkansas?

Because you ****ed up and gave every state two senators, a blatantly undemocratic move.

	30-09-2003 03:28									#52
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Krazyhorse,

A bit slow on the trigger.

quote: Now why did I put that? I should have said imposing martial law.

	30-09-2003 03:31									#53
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oops.

	30-09-2003 03:32									#54
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I'll give him a 7 based purely on the fact that he was the only interesting PM we've ever had.

	30-09-2003 03:34									#55
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That and the fact that Nixon used to call him "that clever French bastard".

Sweet.

	30-09-2003 06:15									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Odin You Canadians have to get over your regionalist BS, You guys are acting like the southern US just before our civil war, You don't see us Minnesotans getting mad because other states make some $$$ off our iron. Why do canadian provences think they are independent counties? You guys need to give your national government more teeth so you don't have this bickering.

Which part of "Canadian Confederation" do you have problems understanding? Up here in Canada, we are not big fans of Big Government.:P

	30-09-2003 09:53									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Personal experience. I worked as a treeplanter, and this is what my boss said when I asked him this question. We planted one cutblock in August that had been cut earlier that summer.

Just because one area was being replanted doesn't mean the same applies to the entire province.

Besides, replanting is not the only part of creating a sustainable forestry industry. The problem is that BC could be chopping down so many trees that there will be a gap before the next batch is ready.

And the even bigger problem is that we don't have a big picture of how many trees are being cut.

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Like I said, we have massive investment in making 2x4s quickly and efficiently. It's going to take time to redirect some of this investment to other areas.

They've been saying that for the past 30 years, all the while they were installing new equipment to increase production of 2x4s.

Ironically, the US softwood tariff could be a blessing in disguise. It could force the BC forestry industry to switch to high value, more labour-intensive products. That would benefit BC's economy a lot more than just chopping down trees as fast as possible.

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Funny how most of the opposition comes not from the locals who are starved for jobs, but from affluent Vancouverites who have never stepped foot in the bush.

Ya got things backwards. The environmentalists are the good guys. The affluent Vancouverites who never go into the bush (the ones who think going to Whistler is roughing it) are the VSE scam artists looking to make a quick buck from the oil and gas fields.

Oil-gas scam is just another repeat of the "This mega project is going to make us all rich". That's what they said about the hydro damns, that's what they said about Alcan, that's what the scam artists say about every great mine they "discover".

The last thing BC needs is another boom-bust mega project.

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi If we have hibernia off Newfoundland, why can't we do the same in BC?

BC still has a fishing industry.

	30-09-2003 11:08									#58
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Not much of a fishing industry.

I have to disagree with some people though. I think stomping on the FLQ with the army was one of the best things Trudeau could have done. The bullshit stopped real quick.

	30-09-2003 18:01									#59
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One thing that always made me laugh about Trudeau was his tactic in question period of answering in french to members of the house who only spoke english.

	30-09-2003 18:16									#60
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Not much of a fishing industry. I have to disagree with some people though. I think stomping on the FLQ with the army was one of the best things Trudeau could have done. The bullshit stopped real quick.

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