30-09-2003 19:13									#61
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I know a guy who was arrested a couple of dozen times in the space of a week by the army. No probable cause, no charges. Just tossed in the back of a paddywagon for speaking French and going to university.

That's not something I'm proud of as a Canadian.

	30-09-2003 19:16									#62
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It's interesting that the Albertans whine about breaking an economic agreement, but laugh off a massive, coordinated violation of the civil rights of a whole population.

It has nothing to do with PET's hypothesis about "bleeding hearts" who don't like seeing a soldier's helmet, either.....

	30-09-2003 22:12									#63
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse It's interesting that the Albertans whine about breaking an economic agreement, but laugh off a massive, coordinated violation of the civil rights of a whole population.

Yeah, it just goes to show that people love a politician who stomps on people, as long as it ain't them.

	30-09-2003 22:44									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Why not? Newfoundland makes assloads of money off oil now that Hibernia works, the problem is it's just a shithole of a province that can't figure out how to manage its province.

First, you're treading awfully close to Maritime/Atlantic flaming. Not appreciated. Most of us out here are hard-working tax-paying honest folk like you, who grumble about how the feds don't understand us (we've got that much in common).

Second, there's a serious flaw in the transfer-payments system in situations like Newfoundland's (and to a lesser extent, Nova Scotia's with our offshore natural gas reserves). For every $1 in energy revenues earned by the province, federal transfer payments get clawed back something like 80%. So the province only ends up about 20% better off; a rather poor R.O.I. for such major projects. How's the province supposed to invest those revenues to improve their economy if the feds just take away other funds at almost the same rate?

	30-09-2003 22:50									#65
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Yup, of course when Alberta went from a have-not to a have province, they got to keep 100% of the oil revenues and the hand outs from Ottawa (something that Albertans like to forget).

	01-10-2003 01:53									#66
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse I know a guy who was arrested a couple of dozen times in the space of a week by the army. No probable cause, no charges. Just tossed in the back of a paddywagon for speaking French and going to university. That's not something I'm proud of as a Canadian.

See, I'm not proud of that either, but I still can't condemn Trudeau for doing what he did, just like I can't condemn military leaders when their soldiers commit immoral acts.

It was extreme, yes, but we all know that hindsight is 20/20, and it can be agreed that the action seems to have had at least some positive effect at bringing about an end to major FLQ actions.

I mean, I'm no fan of Quebec's oppressive language laws, but it's better than tossing bodies in trunks, I'd wager.

	01-10-2003 02:11									#67
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Margret Trudeau was pretty hot.

	01-10-2003 02:27									#68
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quote: Why don't we (Americans) ever have conversations like this about, say, West Virginia or Arkansas?

Probably because the implied transfer payments are not that large in the US.

	01-10-2003 02:35									#69
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Here's the chart. Please note that the states who receive a lot more than they give are generally rather small. VA & MD are special cases, since that's where Washington is at and the federal gov't spends a lot of money.

Attachment: chart_distribution_991209_n.gif
This has been downloaded 18 time(s).

	01-10-2003 02:38									#70
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Here's the chart. . . .

What I find funny is that people who live in states on the receiveing end seem to think they're the ones being drained by the Feds.

	01-10-2003 06:04									#71
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse It's interesting that the Albertans whine about breaking an economic agreement, but laugh off a massive, coordinated violation of the civil rights of a whole population. It has nothing to do with PET's hypothesis about "bleeding hearts" who don't like seeing a soldier's helmet, either.....

It's interesting that some Quebecers whine about an insurrection being put down by the army, but they think it's quite funny that people from another province would be upset about their economy being raped by an arrogant and uncaring central government.

I guess the thousands and 10's of thousands who lost their jobs, their homes, and their businesses shouldn't be upset because about a thousand people somewhere else were 'inconvenienced' for a few days by being detained for links or suspected links to a group that had just kidnapped and murdered a cabinet minister and a foreign diplomat.

I think it has everything to do with people not giving a **** about what happens to 'them over there', but what happens to themselves should be everyone's concern.

	01-10-2003 06:07									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Yup, of course when Alberta went from a have-not to a have province, they got to keep 100% of the oil revenues and the hand outs from Ottawa (something that Albertans like to forget).

Hand outs from Ottawa?

	01-10-2003 06:12									#73
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quote: Originally posted by cinch See, I'm not proud of that either, but I still can't condemn Trudeau for doing what he did, just like I can't condemn military leaders when their soldiers commit immoral acts.

How does that make sense?

T ordered the army to do just what they did. Round up everyone possibly connected to the FLQ and put a stop to the political violence.

Either it was moral to do that and he did the right thing, or it was immoral and he did the wrong thing. Either way he ordered the acts, did he not?

	01-10-2003 06:32									#74
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse I know a guy who was arrested a couple of dozen times in the space of a week by the army. No probable cause, no charges. Just tossed in the back of a paddywagon for speaking French and going to university.

Isn't that sufficient?

	01-10-2003 08:20									#75
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quote: Besides, replanting is not the only part of creating a sustainable forestry industry. The problem is that BC could be chopping down so many trees that there will be a gap before the next batch is ready.

Then we get into a debate as to what counts as harvestable timber, and what does not. The way that I see it is to look at all the beetle wood. The beetle wood consumes far more trees than the forest industry would in a year.

quote: And the even bigger problem is that we don't have a big picture of how many trees are being cut.

We have good estimates, based on stumpage payments.

quote: Ironically, the US softwood tariff could be a blessing in disguise. It could force the BC forestry industry to switch to high value, more labour-intensive products. That would benefit BC's economy a lot more than just chopping down trees as fast as possible.

No. All the money that would otherwise go to capital investment goes to keep the mills running. Almost all of the coastal mills have shut down because their margins have increased.

The only reasons why the interiot mills continue to run is because of the low margins in harvesting lumber.

Perhaps once we have an agreement, the money will be there for capital investment.

Another option is to neglect the forest industry entirely. As a proportion of the provinces revenues forestry has declined tremendously. The problem will be what to do with all the North?

quote: Oil-gas scam is just another repeat of the "This mega project is going to make us all rich". That's what they said about the hydro dams

Hey, at least our power grid operates. We sell electricity at considerable profit to the Californians. Now if only we could get them to pay.

quote: BC still has a fishing industry

Non-native?

	01-10-2003 08:42									#76
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither How does that make sense? T ordered the army to do just what they did. Round up everyone possibly connected to the FLQ and put a stop to the political violence. Either it was moral to do that and he did the right thing, or it was immoral and he did the wrong thing. Either way he ordered the acts, did he not?

Well, it basically comes down to "possibly connected to the FLQ" and "just speaking French"... Now, I am going to back off a bit here, because granted, I don't know alot of individual case studies about what happened to certain folk... but I maintain that there is a difference between detaining people on suspicion of terrorism (if they had good reason) and just randomly arresting French people off the street (which is what KH implied).

Although, it should be noted that certain Arab-Canadians are being detained in Canada right now on "suspicion" of being terrorists, with as much, or less, evidence against them than anyone arrested in the FLQ Crisis. So this isn't a Trudeau/Martial-Law only phenomenon.

	01-10-2003 10:00									#77
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quote: Originally posted by cinch Well, it basically comes down to "possibly connected to the FLQ" and "just speaking French"... Now, I am going to back off a bit here, because granted, I don't know alot of individual case studies about what happened to certain folk... but I maintain that there is a difference between detaining people on suspicion of terrorism (if they had good reason) and just randomly arresting French people off the street (which is what KH implied). Although, it should be noted that certain Arab-Canadians are being detained in Canada right now on "suspicion" of being terrorists, with as much, or less, evidence against them than anyone arrested in the FLQ Crisis. So this isn't a Trudeau/Martial-Law only phenomenon.

Uhhhh... if speaking French in Quebec could have got you detained, there would not have been many outside of detention. That was an interesting thing for him to say, but think about it...

I suppose the arab Canadians being detained right now might have a case for wrong doing. Unfortunately for them, they are being detained after an investigation by CSIS and the RCMP. I highly doubt they were detained for simply being ethnically arab. If they were, that would be a shame on us.

	01-10-2003 13:26									#78
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara What I find funny is that people who live in states on the receiveing end seem to think they're the ones being drained by the Feds.

Which states are you refering to?