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Imran Siddiqui
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The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:31
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quote:
Take Favre or Elway and put them in with an o-line like the Vicking use to have or the Niners have now (left side bashing only) and watch them fall apart. |
FARVE? (since you got schooled for Elway  ). Farve was an amazing QB, who really didn't have an amazing OL. Sure it was good, but no better than any above average team.
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Shoot, I meant ol' what's his face from Dallas, I always confuse them... uh, Aikmen... Hate 'em both the same. |
Dallas under Johnson never played a West Coast Offense. They did have a terrific OL though.
However, if you say that every QB with a great OL has to be downgraded, then the question is how much and what was more responsible for success the OL or the QB? And it isn't like you have SuperBowl Champs with bad OLs!
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My point was that if Walsh didn't have the defense he had, having a great offense alone wouldn't have won him 3 Super Bowls. The Chargers of the Coryell era are the prime example. And the same thing goes for Martz. You can be an offensive genious all you want, but if you don't have a defense, you're not going to win many if any Super Bowls. |
 So what is your point on Martz not being an offensive genius? Oh, and btw, the Rams D this year is one of the best in the league (since Martz has been focusing on building the D up).
Remember he was one kick from winning a SB in 2001, and for the past two years he's been dealing with many injuries, especially to his two star players.
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Of course he made a self fulfilling prophecy when he said something to the effect that when he has the better players, he is the better coach. |
And it goes the other way, the more successful the team the 'better' the coach is percieved. The best coaches create new systems and get the most out of their guys.
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Just tryin to say that even the geniuses with the best schemes have trouble without the proper personnel to carry out their plan. |
Well duh! It takes a long time to get your personell in place. Jimmy Johnson in particular had a good amount of time to get HIS players in because the Boys were so bad when he got there. In Miami he was under pressure to win NOW, and he couldn't get his type of player in (especially in RB). The same thing with Spurrier, give him some time to get his guys in. Oh, and he hasn't been running the Fun n' Gun in Washington. Nothing close.
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Parcells didn't win the Super Bowl with the Patriots. |
Yeah, but the turnaround was very impressive. Same with the Jets... their turnaround was almost miraculous.
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badams52
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near the magic kingdom
May 2002
time: 21:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Deathtongue
Like I said, fairly often the records don't matter, this is the Chiefs-Raiders we're talking about.
If you recall correctly, the Raiders only lost by 1 yard last Monday night......with the second string QB. |
Good to see at least one person understands the difficulty of going through the season undefeated. Just takes 1 week for KC to be off, not get that game winning Dante Hall return, or be caught by the TO bug (if you look it up, you'd see they are an incredible +18 at the half way mark!). Of course the great teams cause turnovers, but +18 is astounding!
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So what is your point on Martz not being an offensive genius?
Remember he was one kick from winning a SB in 2001, and for the past two years he's been dealing with many injuries, especially to his two star players. |
Well 2 points I have about calling Martz a genius. #1 it's too early in his career to just hand him the genius moniker and #2 you said it yourself in your quote. He has been dealing with many injuries which has made his offense not as spectacular. In my opinion, an offensive genious should excel without having as many top flight athletes as Martz has had. You never hear anyone talking about the genious of the Colts head coaches or offensive coordinator because they have the players to put up a heap load of points.
You say he was within a kick form winning SB 2001, but I say it should have never gotten to that. With his team, the Patriots shouldn't have even been in the game by then. I don't think Martz has been unfairly criticized for his play calling in that game and the ones before.
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Well duh! It takes a long time to get your personell in place. Jimmy Johnson in particular had a good amount of time to get HIS players in because the Boys were so bad when he got there. In Miami he was under pressure to win NOW, and he couldn't get his type of player in (especially in RB). The same thing with Spurrier, give him some time to get his guys in. Oh, and he hasn't been running the Fun n' Gun in Washington. Nothing close. |
 so now you're saying a coach needs to have his personnel to succeed. That's exactly my point, except instead of "his" personnel, I would claim it to be good to great personnel. A coach will never be considered great unless he has the players to win with. If Martz was the offensive coordinator for a team without so many weapons, I would say he wouldn't be seen as the offensive guru that he is.
Johnson was successful in Dallas because of a little trade to Minnesota which gave him many high draft picks for a waste of a back in Hershel Walker and he selected the right players that helped create a dynasty.
And I laugh whenever I think of Spurrier and I doubt he will ever bring glory to Washington. He was great in college cause he lived in an uneven playing field. Of course he knew how to use his players and coach them well, but now that he's in a more even playing field and against coaches more his equal (and actually with the management in Washington I would claim that he is actually below the league standard in players) he hasn't succeeded. Maybe he will prove me wrong.
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Imran Siddiqui
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The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:31
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quote:
#1 it's too early in his career to just hand him the genius moniker and #2 you said it yourself in your quote. He has been dealing with many injuries which has made his offense not as spectacular. In my opinion, an offensive genious should excel without having as many top flight athletes as Martz has had. |
I don't think it is too early in his career. In his position as offensive coordinator and head coach he has shown an explosive offense.
#2, you miss my point, even WITH the injuries his offenses have been good (9th in yardage last year with all the problems that team had). However, because of the injuries he hasn't been winning Superbowls. Fact of the matter is that you may put up some good stats with injuries to your starters, but you won't go win all that many games with them... even if your Lombardi. Your backups are usually NOT the 'average' starting player. There is usually a reason why they are a backup with your team (ie, no other team signed them).
Offensive geniuses aren't required to be the #1 offense in the league with Detroit Lion talent. They should have a high ranked offense with at least mid-level talent.
Look at it this way, Bulger really isn't anything special as a QB. The system around him has really made him a superstar, and that is Martz's baby. We may also say the same things for Warner (although Warner did have a great talent for being absurdly accurate), that he thrived because of his system.
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so now you're saying a coach needs to have his personnel to succeed. That's exactly my point, except instead of "his" personnel, I would claim it to be good to great personnel. |
No, I think you are wrong. He doesn't need 'good to great' personnel, just HIS style of personnel. Look at Parcells. He doesn't have 'good to great' players, he has his type of guys. Role players that play well for him in his type of system.
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badams52
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near the magic kingdom
May 2002
time: 21:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
I don't think it is too early in his career. In his position as offensive coordinator and head coach he has shown an explosive offense. |
Martz has 3+ seasons of NFL offensive coordinator/head coach experience. Not a SINGLE man with that much experience will ever be elected into the football hall of fame. I'll wait till he gets a few years under his belt and experience with different players to label him as a genius. Till he can prove himself like Walsh, Landry, Shula, Parcells, or even Vermeil, I just cannot justify calling him a genius. And last year didn't show very well for Martz.
quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Offensive geniuses aren't required to be the #1 offense in the league with Detroit Lion talent. They should have a high ranked offense with at least mid-level talent. |
Never said a #1 offense with Detroit Lion talent was needed to be considered a genius. I said "an offensive genious should excel without having as many top flight athletes as Martz has had." I think that a high ranked offense with mid-level talent would fit that mold. Take out Holt and Faulk, and maybe you have an offense with mid-level talent, maybe more if given average replacement players.
Martz has had Warner/Bulger (of course I don't think they're great quarterbacks, but they have accuracy and when Warner lost it, the team fluttered), Faulk (one of the best running backs in NFL history when healthy), Bruce, Holt, Hakim (who starts on another team now). With talent like that, I believe that any good offensive coordinator would put up lots of points on the board. The fact that Martz broke records it a testament to having an excellent offensive mind. That I don't deny, but I cannot go above that to call him a genius, yet.
quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
He doesn't need 'good to great' personnel, just HIS style of personnel. |
Show me a team where the great coach has players to fit his style, and I'll show you a team that has good to great players. I'm not saying he needs superstars like Moss, Farve, Sapp, etc., just good to great players.
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Imran Siddiqui
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The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:31
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quote:
Not a SINGLE man with that much experience will ever be elected into the football hall of fame. I'll wait till he gets a few years under his belt and experience with different players to label him as a genius. |
People were labeling Walsh 'The Genius' after the 49ers won the Superbowl in his 3rd year. Why then is Martz's 3+ years too few?
quote:
I said "an offensive genious should excel without having as many top flight athletes as Martz has had." I think that a high ranked offense with mid-level talent would fit that mold. Take out Holt and Faulk, and maybe you have an offense with mid-level talent, maybe more given average players. |
Faulk has been out for plenty of time during Martz's tenure as Rams O-Coord and Head Coach. Holt has only been the best reciever lately, before that it was Bruce and he's been hurt a bit before too.
The offense still chugs along at a nice clip.
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Martz has had Warner/Bulger (of course I don't think they're great quarterbacks, but they have accuracy and when Warner lost it, the team fluttered), Faulk (one of the best running backs in NFL history when healthy), Bruce, Holt, Hakim (who starts on another team now). With talent like that, I believe that any good offensive coordinator would put up lots of points on the board. |
I'm not sure about that. I mean plenty of those players were passed over by other teams (Warner and Faulk in particular). Was it better talent or great coaching that coaxed that talent out? After all one of the most talented QBs in NFL history was Jeff George, but without the right coaching we have only glimpses of what he could have become.
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Show me a team where the great coach has players to fit his style, and I'll show you a team that has good to great players. I'm not saying he needs superstars like Moss, Farve, Sapp, etc., just good to great players. |
Being somewhat of Jets fan, I'd say that the 1998 team that went to the AFC Championship Game did not have mostly good to great players. They had some good players (Martin, Johnson), but most were average.
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badams52
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near the magic kingdom
May 2002
time: 21:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
[Faulk] was dealt wasn't he? An excellent and versatile back was obviously not considered that great by the Colts at the time. |
Right, excellent backs are never traded are they? Dickerson, Ricky Williams, Jerome Bettis. Maybe it doesn't happen often, but teams do trade away star players from time to time.
The Colts traded him cause they wanted Edgerrin James and to unload a heap of money and while doing do, they got the Rams 2nd and 5th round draft choices. I think the Colts made out quite well with the deal, and I think they also knew about Faulk's potential.
He was their leading rusher and receiver in his last year with them and since his move to the Rams, he's put up similar numbers to that year. Sure they're a little better than what he got in Indianapolis, but they are quite similar.
Do you still not think Indianapolis knew Faulk was a great back? I don't know about you, but if I had one player who had the most receptions, receiving yards and rushing yards for my team by far, I sure as hell know that that player is of excellent quality and very valuable. And when I learned he was traded, I was very happy for the Rams as well knowing they just got an excellent addition to their offense. It was no surpirse to me what Faulk did when he began playing for the Rams.
quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
I'm not sure you could make the case the 'talent was there' for the Rams. They brought IN the talent. Sure they had Bruce, but the rest of the 'stars' were signed or drafted. It isn't just the head coach that helps with that, the coordinators have a HUGE say (especially with a coach like Vermeil). |
Looking at the history of the building of the Rams, you are correct that much of the top talent was drafted or aquired before that marvelous year. But they had Hakim, Bruce, Prohl, Warner (though they had no idea he could run the offense at the time), and mostly the same backups from before. They got Trent Green (who became injured before the regular season), Faulk (an excellent pick up), and Holt (from the draft I think). And certainly the coaching staff is part of the equation for who is picked up.
So they did make some great off-season moves to pick up the talent they needed, but with a season schedule like they had, and all the weapons they had, I'm not going to call Martz a genius. They dominated in the regular season the same way Nebraska or Miami dominates in their college seasons. The other teams just couldn't match up with their speed.
Once the Rams got to the playoffs, they struggled to win games. They struggled to get by Tampa and had a very close and exciting game against the Titans. This tells me that while they were an excellent team, they weren't the Bears of 85 of the Niners of 89 who both danced all over the other teams in the season and the play-offs.
Good as they were, and make no mistake, Martz is an excellent OC and coach for getting his talent to the Super Bowl, I'm not going to be able to call him a genius just for the work he's done with the Rams. When he came in, certainly he had a hand in picking up the extra talent, but with all the weapons the Rams have, any coach could be made to look good. Just look at Barry Switzer and the Cowboys team he inherited. If Martz can continue to do well, then maybe I'd call him a genius.
You know, there's another coach who does quite well with his offenses year after year and some people call him the mastermind, but I'm not about to call him that considering the talent he's been able to work with. As great as a coach as Shanahan has been, he's also had the offensive talent to pull it off.
quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
I think more than 50%, at least, fail due to the failures of their first head coach. |
Then we'll have to disagree on that one. I'm not about to say that most players said to have potential and later fail do so because of their first head coach.
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Imran Siddiqui
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The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:31
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Ah, a good football discussion, me likey  .
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Right, excellent backs are never traded are they? Dickerson, Ricky Williams, Jerome Bettis. Maybe it doesn't happen often, but teams do trade away star players from time to time. |
I would say in everyone of those cases the RB was percieved as a 'problem' or overrated. Especially with the Ricky Williams case, the Saints saw him as overrated and a problem player. That is why they drafted McAllister. I don't know why Dickerson was dealt.
And was Bettis a star before he was traded? I don't remember that.
I think generally star backs are not dealt unless the dealing team thinks they are overrated or just not worth it.
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He was their leading rusher and receiver in his last year with them and since his move to the Rams, he's put up similar numbers to that year. Sure they're a little better than what he got in Indianapolis, but they are quite similar. |
I'm sure Indy believed him to be not as good as the numbers. At the time I thought it was a boneheaded move. Sure the Colts picked up James (and maybe were thinking about Williams), but they had to think something was wrong with Faulk if they dealt him for so little (comparatively).
I mean, it'd be like the Ravens trading Jamal Lewis to the Lions in order to get the #1 pick in the draft so they could draft a star RB (pick one). Unless the Ravens wer down on Lewis, it doesn't make sense.
--
More later
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28-10-2003 22:13
ACK!
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