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Mordoch
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Denver, Colorado
Jan 2002
time: 05:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Sandman
That said, I cannot understand why the Palestinians are criticised for wanting to 'drive the Jews into the sea', when a portion of Israel's government wants to drive the Palestinians into the desert. It's hypocritical to demand a crackdown on radical Palestinian groups without a similar crackdown on the Israeli side. MY suggestion: Offer to outlaw some of the settler parties in exchange for the Palestinians clamping down on Hamas etc. Fat chance that'll happen, of course.
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Note, a significant difference is that while you might have a FEW extreme Israeli government officials proposing such a policy it remains the essential policy of the PLO as embodied in their charter.
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Article 15: The liberation of Palestine, from an Arab viewpoint, is a national (qawmi) duty and it attempts to repel the Zionist and imperialist aggression against the Arab homeland, and aims at the the liquidation of the Zionist presence. |
http://www.iris.org.il/plochart.htm
While there were reports in many western media sources in 1996 that the PLO had ammended their charter, this is not actually the case.
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The PNC vote was taken in a closed session and the PNC and PLO have yet to release an official version of the resolution. Conflicting versions of the resolution's text appear today in the Arabic newspapers Al-Quds and Al-Ayyam, and in a release put out by the Jerusalem Media and Communications Center. The operative clauses in the JMCC version, which in the view of Peace Watch is the most accurate, states as follows: "First: The PNC delegates the legal committee to prepare a National Program; Second: The Program shall be presented to the Palestinian Council in a special session in accordance with the provisions of Article 33 of the Covenant for its adoption; Third: The Charter shall be amended by repealing all that contravenes the mutual letters of recognition between the PLO and the state of Israel."
This decision fails to meet the obligations laid out in Article XXXI (9) of the Oslo II accords in two respects. First, the actual amendment of the Covenant has been left for a future date. As of now, the old Covenant, in its original form, remains the governing document of the PLO, and will continue in this status until the amendments are actually approved. In legal terms, there is a sharp difference between calling for something to change and actually implementing the changes. |
http://www.iris.org.il/pncvote.htm
Saying you'll get around to ammending the charter later doesn't actually affecect the contents of the charter untill you actually do so.
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Zevico
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Melbourne
Apr 2002
time: 15:31
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quote:
The IDF is the moral equivalent of Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and the al_Aqsa brigades. |
Che, how many Israelis here profess to wanting to kill as many people as possible if they become soldiers? What you are doing here is accusing every single Israeli on this board of being a cold hearted murderer and a racist, which is quite frankly absolutely false, as has been shown by their posts here and by the majority of Israeli's actions everywhere.
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Again, roughly 3x as many Palestianians have been killed than Jews and we're supposed to believe this statistic reflects unintentional and intentional killings? |
Berzerker, that comparison isn't a very good one: the IDF is in the territories perhaps daily while suicide bombers strike perhaps weekly or a few times a week in Israel. Moreover, when the IDF goes in, it usually has a gun battle with whoever it attempts to arrest/kill (depending on the target), so it quite likely that civilians will be accidentally shot in the crossfire. What this basically amounts to is that a tiny minority of Israelis really are horrible peopel and really do want to kill Palestinians whilst the rest do not. In comparison, a large minority (30%, according to a recent poll, I think) of Palestinians did not support any sort of ceasefire with Israel and prefer to support the killing of Israelis, whether civilian or not.
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Zevico
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Melbourne
Apr 2002
time: 15:31
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quote:
David Ben-Gurion is the one you're thinking of - responsible for the bombing of the King David Hotel in 1946, amongst other things. |
Actually, it was the Irgun, headed by Menachem Begin. Ben Gurion was part of the Haganah, a non-terrorist organisation.
Begin and members of the Irgun claim that they phoned the hotel some time beforehand, giving civilians and staff their plenty of time to evacuate. This claim does have some logic behind it-if anyone was to be actually killed, especially civilians, the Irgun would lose some of its support base, become hated by many Jews, and generally just shoot itself in the foot. I do not believe it or disbelieve it personally, as I don't know of any motivations the Irgun could have for setting it off without informing the area.
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Az
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MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:31
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quote:
So you guys will "compensate" for stolen land if other thieves will do the same? Gee, I'll stop murdering people if someone else does too. |
No, but I promise to pay you for that matress I took from you when your brother pays me for my couch.
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That's a bogus argument, it doesn't matter if the people living there were a "nation". That's like saying the USSR could have morally kept eastern Europe since Germany conquered it first and abolished the victim's nationhood.
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The comparison doesn't hold water because there no nationhood that was abolished.
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Yeah, all those people who are robbed of their land should just keep quiet and embrace the people who took their lands |
Makes just as much sense as yours. 
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Apparently it is relevant or there wouldn't be a problem over there. Arabs aren't crossing the Atlantic to bomb Jews in NYC...
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No in NYC, but they do it in other places.
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When one side is portrayed as causing all or most of the death and destruction while the other side has actually killed ~3x as many people, that argument takes on the appearance of a peculiarity to say the least.
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Yep. Israel is held as the victim by the world opinion. 
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Irrelevant? Hardly, over here we get a picture of brutal savages blowing up children while these numbers are rarely mentioned. Your "justification" for these numbers was "heavy equipment",
meaning you guys are just guilty of being sloppy?
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Sloppy? Not in relation to other military operations.
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If it's a war and killing civilians is acceptable (albeit perhaps lamentable?), then why complain about the bombings of civilians? Yes, ~3x as many Arabs are "mistakenly" killed...
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Why, thank you for ignoring the intent discussion once again! Killing civilians should be avoided as much as possible. But if groups don't abide the rules of war, and hide in population centers, it shouldn't and doesn't give them protection. You'd be rewarding the crime if you would.
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You can't ignore recent history, the people who got screwed won't. And telling them they'll be compensated when someone else comensates you won't convince them you have the moral high ground.
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That swings both ways. The arab refugee problem, and the jewish displacement problem were created at the same time.
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You expressed confusion when I said both sides elect terrorists. |
No you said that they've elected terrorists. Ariel Sharon isn't a terrorist, and never was one. Arafat was one ( I am not sure about his current status. )
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Ah, okay. But I thought that was sovereign lands belonging to the Arabs, so why are there any settlements there to begin with?
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Because they weren't sovereign lands belonging to "the arabs" when the settlements were built.
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Btw, can you identify the source of your quotes, you mixed 3 people into your last post.
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umm, ok, sorry about that.
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Whaleboy
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Please make all cheques payable to Whaleboy
Jan 2003
time: 05:31
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Here's my view.
I JUST DON'T CARE ANYMORE!!!
There was a time when I really actually cared about what was happening in the Middle East, and I thought it was a case of 6 of one, half a dozen of the other.
I am sick of the bickering, the fighting, the eye for eye, tooth for tooth reprisals, the biblical justifications, the endless meaningless circular points of view that never lead anywhere. I am sick of peace processes that go nowhere, and lead to yet more needless deaths on both sides. I am sick of people believing they are superior to another. We are all human for gods sake!
I don't care about the little details that politicians and zealots get stuck on. I don't care about the legal issues. I dont care about political convenience or injured prides. I dont care about the constant conflict of opinions, both on the ground and here. I just want peace and I don't give two ****s how we get it.
Last edited by Whaleboy on 01-10-2003 at 20:00
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GePap
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of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Oerdin
Being moral can easily be defined as a person doing the right thing. I think it's clear that things such as equality before the law, punishing militants from your own sai as well as the other side, providing legal protections of the rights of your citizens both Jew and Arab would all be interpreted as "doing the right thing" by most reasonable people. Morality often has very little to do with the law but irrefutably the Israeli side is acting more morally then the Palestinian side. |
Only if you count murders as the sole measure of suffering does this make sense. Fine, even if we disregard the fact that a Palestiains is more likely to get killed than an Israeli, period, there are counless other abuses. For example, home demolitions: how many Palestiains have been made homelss by association? here is no moral defense for that. Curfews and closures that starve the palestinains economy, plus the ubiquitious checkpoints. Palestians suffer far more than Israeli on a daily basis. Israel built essentially discriminatory systems in the west bank, were you can have a settlement with white stucco houses, red roofs and lawn, while the palestinains villages around it have no regular access to water and have to wait for a couple of days until the water truck comes over.
The Pals have no rule of law,both by the failure of their leaders, the actions of their leaders, and the conditions in which they live every day. The PA is the most responsible, for this, but Israel is not that far behind.
So no, I do not see israelis as acting more morally simply becuase of these court actions. Now, if tommorrow every single illegal settlement (as much a violation of the rules of war as terrorism, if less deadly) was shut down, amybe you can come to me about being more moral.
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molly bloom
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Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
quote:
No you said that they've elected terrorists. Ariel Sharon isn't a terrorist, and never was one. Arafat was one ( I am not sure about his current status. ) |
You guys did elect Begim, who was the head of the Stern Gang, right? |
Head of Irgun. Avraham Stern was the Stern Gang's creator. Both groups were responsible for terrorist outrages, of the sort which would attract criticism from people pontificating about immoral 'Arab' or 'Palestinian' terrorism- the assassination of Count Folke Bernadotte, for instance (U.N. mediator) on September 17th 1948, along with his aide, Col. Serot, Lord Moyne (British Minister Resident) in 1944 in Cairo, the random murder of civilians- at the Damascus Gate in Jerusalem on 13th December 1947, in Deir Yassin on April 9th, 1948, at the Jaffa Gate in Jerusalem on January 7th 1948, and so on, and so on.
Electing former terrorists as head of state is nothing new, nor is it particular to the Middle East- Eamon de Valera became Eire's leader, Jomo Kenyatta in Kenya, Robert Mugabe in Zimbabwe, Nelson Mandela in South Africa, and so on.
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Zevico
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Melbourne
Apr 2002
time: 15:31
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quote:
the assassination of Count Folke Bernadotte |
Never heard of that one. Source?
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Berzerker
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topeka, kansas,USA
May 1999
time: 23:31
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Azazel - quote:
No, but I promise to pay you for that matress I took from you when your brother pays me for my couch. |
As if that's even moral, a Palestinian who was robbed of their land isn't the brother of an Arab dictator who stole from Jews.
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The comparison doesn't hold water because there no nationhood that was abolished. |
Sure there was, the Ottoman's did what the Nazis did - abolish nationhood of the countries they conquered. Besides, since when is it moral to steal other people's land based on the rationalisation that the victims weren't a nation? Human rights belong to humans, not nations.
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No in NYC, but they do it in other places. |
And would these attacks be happening if there was no conflict over those lands?
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Yep. Israel is held as the victim by the world opinion. |
I was talking about the US media, not world opinion.
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Sloppy? Not in relation to other military operations. |
Then account for the numbers. When I mention them you say "heavy equipment" is responsible (whatever that means).
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Why, thank you for ignoring the intent discussion once again! |
 The pot speaketh.
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Killing civilians should be avoided as much as possible. But if groups don't abide the rules of war, and hide in population centers, it shouldn't and doesn't give them protection. You'd be rewarding the crime if you would. |
LIke I said, use a machine gun on a crowd because someone shot at you. That would certainly account for 3x as many Arab deaths. Keep going, you've almost justified suicide bombers since government personnel live among the general populace too.
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That swings both ways. The arab refugee problem, and the jewish displacement problem were created at the same time. |
By whom? Did Palestinians displace European Jews? Did European Jews displace Palestinians? If someone breaks into my home, can I now break into yours? That seems to be your logic.
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No you said that they've elected terrorists. Ariel Sharon isn't a terrorist, and never was one. Arafat was one ( I am not sure about his current status. ) |
You said yourself Sharon has some "adventures" to answer for, it sure sounds like he was involved in a mass slaughter. Didn't you say that was part of his plan? 9/11 was part of OBL's plan. But haven't you been reading the thread? Begin was a terrorist, and so was Sharon.
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Because they weren't sovereign lands belonging to "the arabs" when the settlements were built. |
I see. And you say all these settlements would be removed if peace was accepted? Is that even politically possible?
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Az
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MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:31
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quote:
As if that's even moral, a Palestinian who was robbed of their land isn't the brother of an Arab dictator who stole from Jews.
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then why do they keep saying they're brothers all of the time? 
seriously, though, expecting that the jews would pay reparations for the palestinian lands while not paying reparations for the jewish property as a part of an all-encompassing agreement is unfair.
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Sure there was, the Ottoman's did what the Nazis did - abolish nationhood of the countries they conquered. Besides, since when is it moral to steal other people's land based on the rationalisation that the victims weren't a nation? Human rights belong to humans, not nations.
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then controlling someone's land isn't stealing it! Lands belonging to sovereigns switch hands while sovereigns change. With regards to private lands, the lands remained in private hands during Ottoman and British rule. Just because your land is in the sovereign territory of the US, doesn't mean that the US government owns it!
WRG to palestinian refugees, and compensation for their land, see previous discussion.
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And would these attacks be happening if there was no conflict over those lands?
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So you propose to always avoid conflict even if you're right? How very un-american of you.
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I was talking about the US media, not world opinion.
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Well, obviously we were talking about different things. For some reason, I weigh the latter a bit more than the former.
what? I've been addressing the intent issue all along. You're the one who always compared numbers and gave intent no regard.
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LIke I said, use a machine gun on a crowd because someone shot at you. That would certainly account for 3x as many Arab deaths. Keep going, you've almost justified suicide bombers since government personnel live among the general populace too.
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 you wouldn't be a lawyer, by any chance? TARGETTING COMBATANTS IS OK. SUICIDE BOMBERS DON'T TARGET COMBATANTS.
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By whom? Did Palestinians displace European Jews? Did European Jews displace Palestinians? If someone breaks into my home, can I now break into yours? That seems to be your logic
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No, but we again return to the proximity of palestinians and other arabs.
The comparison is also void because 'can' is irrelevant in a town where there is no police force.
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You said yourself Sharon has some "adventures" to answer for, it sure sounds like he was involved in a mass slaughter. Didn't you say that was part of his plan? 9/11 was part of OBL's plan. But haven't you been reading the thread? Begin was a terrorist, and so was Sharon.
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Having a nice time ignoring or falsifying all of what I've said? his 'adventure' was a military one. I didn't say that mass slaughter was part of his plan. The establishment of a friendly regime in Lebanon was.
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I see. And you say all these settlements would be removed if peace was accepted? Is that even politically possible? |
yes. Already happened in the past.
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our_man
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Glasgow, Scotland
Oct 2000
time: 05:31
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Not wanting to get OT here, but I just had to respond to molly bloom's consideration of Eamon de Valera as a terrorist. While there are plenty of people that would argue Collins a terrorist, I have never heard of anyone suggesting de Valera before. 
First of all, the Easter Rising (and his involvement) were not terrorist actions. The Volunteers simply went in and occupied public buildings. The British Army then tried to wipe them out and consequently destroyed a large part of the city centre.
During the War of Independence, he spent almost all of his time in the States, trying to win support for the Irish State (because the Irish delegation wasn't even allowed to present their case for self-deteremination at Versailles). He was also in jail in England (or on the run) for some time. Consequently he did not have much involvement in the War of Independence; in his absence Collins was the one who assumed the mantle of leadership.
Similarly, while he no doubt contributed to the start of the Civil War, he was not involved with the anti-Treaty IRA forces. Again, he was in jail for a large part of this period, where he couldn't do much.
So please, explain to me how Eamon de Valera is a terrorist.
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01-10-2003 12:10
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