02-10-2003 17:20									#121
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

The Easter Rising was certainly not a peaceful action Oerdin, I agree with you there. If you've ever read some of the stuff Pearse wrote, you'd be pretty shocked - he saw the Rising as a "blood sacrfice" and looked forward to becoming a martyr. Which the British happily obliged when they lined him and the other leaders up against the wall and shot them. Pearse was a fanatic.

The serious fighting only started when the British sent their soldiers in to force the rebels out. Almost all of the tragic civilian deaths resulted from the crossfire between the two forces.

	04-10-2003 00:26									#122
	Re: Re: This is why the Israeli side is morally superior to the Palestinians. Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara How many IDF soldiers have been held repsonsible for murdering Palestinians? Was the ****-up who ordered a bomb dropped on a house of sleeping children disciplined, let alone court martialed? Yes, they presecute a handful of settlers, though many more get away with murder and assault all the time. So maybe they're .1 percent better.

Israeli officer indicted for killing 4 in Jenin

	04-10-2003 00:31									#123
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Have the Palestinians done the same

Do they have a state?

	04-10-2003 00:33									#124
	Re: Re: Re: This is why the Israeli side is morally superior to the Palestinians. Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Israeli officer indicted for killing 4 in Jenin

Excellent. The squeeky chegitz gets the grease.

	04-10-2003 01:01									#125
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by elijah I JUST DON'T CARE ANYMORE!!! I just want peace and I don't give two ****s how we get it.

I used to think peace in the Holy Land could only be achieved by simply dropping a thermonuclear weapon on Jerusalem; with no people there, no war is technically possible, right?

Lately, however, I have come to realize even that won't work. After the blast had settled, the cockroaches who survived would immediately begin fighting over the rubble of the Dome of the Rock. By the time we killed the cockroaches, Godzilla and Allahrodan would have mutated into existence and started a brawl. Even if they didn't, the guys in bunny suits on the decon crew would probably just spontaneously attack each other the moment they set foot on the remains of the Gaza Strip. The area is far too acclimated to habitual explosions and death by now.

In all seriousness though, it seems one or both sides has less-than-total interest in peace at the moment (judging by the number of cease-fires broken over the past half-century), and while I don't know enough about the situation to point fingers, I don't think they're going to get along until everyone concerned has cut the crap.

	04-10-2003 01:03									#126
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Tell both sides that their conduct has proved they are both unworthy to administer the Holy Land, and then give it to the Buddists.

	04-10-2003 01:04									#127
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: I freely acknowledge that 60 years ago, before the existence of an Israeli state, there were Jewish terrorist organizations that worked towards statehood. I also acknowledge that some members of these terror organizations even got into politics after the War of Independence. The point is Israel outlawed all of these terror organizations and people who continued membership in these organizations were put in jail. Have the Palestinians done the same

I'll echo che... have the Palestinians a state? After all Israel clamped down on these groups only after statehood.

	04-10-2003 01:11									#128
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: I freely acknowledge that 60 years ago, before the existence of an Israeli state, there were Jewish terrorist organizations that worked towards statehood. I also acknowledge that some members of these terror organizations even got into politics after the War of Independence. The point is Israel outlawed all of these terror organizations and people who continued membership in these organizations were put in jail. Have the Palestinians done the same I'll echo che... have the Palestinians a state? After all Israel clamped down on these groups only after statehood.

britain maintained full authority over Palestine until Israeli statehood was declared, IIRC. There was no equivalent of Oslo, whereby PA was given authority of some land prior to statehood. I am quite certain that if Ben Gurion had been given the equivalent of what the Pals had under Oslo, and have had again after recent Israeli withdrawls, he would have clamped down on Lehi and Etzel. (of course he also would have brought in hundreds of thousands of displaced persons from Europe, which is why the Brits didnt do it)In fact ISTR accusations from Etzel (in Begin's autobiography?) that the Ben Gurion dominated institutions, the Haganah and the Jewish Agency, were passing info to the brits to help arrest etzel members- certainly the Haganah wasnt protesting the Brit campaign against the Underground, much less executing as collaborators people who helped the brits)

	04-10-2003 01:23									#129
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

nor did ben gurion pass funds to etzel.

nor did Ben gurion use etzel to undercut other members of the Labor party, as Arafat has used Hamas to undercut Abbas.

Nor did Ben Gurion pretend to negotiate a ceasefire, acting as middleman between the Brits and Etzel. That was impossible, Etzel being illegal.

This of course, despite the fact that Hamas makes Etzel look like a bunch of quakers.

	04-10-2003 01:29									#130
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

of course in all fairness this was because the Jewish Underground asassinated Ben Gurions Lbor party colleague, Chaim Arlosoroff. Neither Hamas nor IJ, AFAIK, have ever assasinated a senior Fatah figure. You see, Hamas and IJ arent enemies of Fatah the way Etzel and Lehi were enemies of Labor. Which is precisely the point.

	04-10-2003 01:29									#131
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Tell both sides that their conduct has proved they are both unworthy to administer the Holy Land, and then give it to the Buddists.

Dear god, I should hope not. There are enough suicide bombers as is without everyone believing they're gonna come right back again!
Or did you mean Buddhist in the purely philosophical sense?

	04-10-2003 01:30									#132
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Give all the territory to the Martians.

	04-10-2003 01:41									#133
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Elok , and while I don't know enough about the situation to point fingers, I don't think they're going to get along until everyone concerned has cut the crap.

well since this thread is about the situation, maybe you should just read it and learn.

	04-10-2003 02:31									#134
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Ah, which part of the thread? I see about a hundred different opinions here, all mutually incompatible.

	04-10-2003 02:35									#135
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Elok Ah, which part of the thread? I see about a hundred different opinions here, all mutually incompatible.

read all the mutually incompatible opinions, and try to make sort through them. thats what I would do.

	04-10-2003 02:41									#136
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

FYI - the organization i call "etzel" is the same one another poster calls Irgun. Etzel is the Hebrew acronym for Irgun Zvai Leumi - roughly "national group of forces" (help, Azazel) Broadly speaking it was the "hamas" of the jewish underground, with Lehi, also calle "the Stern gang" roughly the equivalent of Islamic jihad - smaller and more extreme (this is not to imply that the Jewish underground groups were as bloody as their Pal equvalents, or that their ideological motivations were analogous - both Lehi and Etzel were secularist (though right wing) - we didnt get fundie Jewish terror groups till the 1970's, and they have always been prosecuted by the State - though as Guevera has pointed out, sometimes with too light a touch.

	04-10-2003 03:08									#137
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

The suicide bomber is the poor man's F-16, some say.

	04-10-2003 10:42									#138
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Yet another example of why the Israeli side is morally superior. They even charge their soldiers when the soldiers screw up and kill kids while the Palestinians call the murders a hero.

quote: An Israeli army officer has been charged over causing the death of four Palestinians, three of them children He is accused of ordering tank units to fire shells and machine guns to enforce a curfew in the West Bank town of Jenin. It was in June of last year that the killings took place. Israeli forces in Jenin started shooting and shelling to get civilians off the streets. According to the indictment against the army officer, a total of 10 tank shells were fired. Two of the dead were young brothers whose case was highlighted by the BBC.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3163106.stm

	04-10-2003 19:48									#139
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Trajanus whether the government blows up some palestinians, or militias blow op some Pals, it's all the same to me

Exactly. If it was a war of two states, your thread would have had sense.

	04-10-2003 20:42									#140
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

There are still people who do not understand that Israel will retaliate against suicide bombers?

There are still people who do not understand that Palestinians will retaliate against Israeli land settlements and military attacks?

	04-10-2003 21:42									#141
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: The suicide bomber is the poor man's F-16, some say.

The day F-16s start targetting malls, cafes or public buses, will be the day Israel will lose it's moral highground.

	04-10-2003 22:09									#142
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: I freely acknowledge that 60 years ago, before the existence of an Israeli state, there were Jewish terrorist organizations that worked towards statehood. I also acknowledge that some members of these terror organizations even got into politics after the War of Independence. The point is Israel outlawed all of these terror organizations and people who continued membership in these organizations were put in jail. Have the Palestinians done the same I'll echo che... have the Palestinians a state? After all Israel clamped down on these groups only after statehood.

hi ,

that has to be the most stupid Q , ......

yes , its called jordan , ......

have a nice day

	04-10-2003 22:11									#143
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 The suicide bomber is the poor man's F-16, some say.

hi ,

, so what pasok did , what was that then , ........

what the albans do today in Greece , whats that then , ......

have a nice day

	05-10-2003 23:01									#144
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: To my understanding neither side could be denied use of these movement corridors. I suppose this could be considered a violation of sovereignty but then so would the movement corridor which connects the West Bank to Gaza. The reality is both sides need check point free movement corridors or else they would become cantons.

I'm not sure how that works. It looks to me that Israel's territory is contiguous without the corridors. And again the point is control, which Israel didn't say they were going to give to the Palestinian state.

quote: True the settlers often settled on the best land but the choice now is between forcably relocating hundreds of thousands of unwilling people or simply adjusting borders so that most Jews are in Israel and most Palestinians are in Palestine.

It's not about the settlers. It's about Israelis and Palestinians living on the same aquifer, and Israel annexing almost the entire area. The Israelis would be getting a disproportionate amount of water in the agreement. Just like it's been like during the occupation.

quote: Where does it say this in the agreement? I'm sure you can find the actual Clinton peace treaty on the internet if you wanted to.

According to Wikipedia:
"The question of airspace - the West Bank and Israel form a strip only up to 80 kilometers wide. Israel has insisted on complete Israeli control of the airspace above the West Bank and Gaza as well as that above Israel itself. A Palestinian compromise of joint control over the combined airspace has been rejected by Israel."
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propo...lestinian_state

quote: erm, what agreement? Taba didn't talk about controlling the highways...

Yep, it didn't say anything about relinquishing control over the highways to the Palestinian state.

	05-10-2003 23:07									#145
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: I freely acknowledge that 60 years ago, before the existence of an Israeli state, there were Jewish terrorist organizations that worked towards statehood. I also acknowledge that some members of these terror organizations even got into politics after the War of Independence. The point is Israel outlawed all of these terror organizations and people who continued membership in these organizations were put in jail. Have the Palestinians done the same I'll echo che... have the Palestinians a state? After all Israel clamped down on these groups only after statehood.

Tell me who the Palestinian Police report to, and I'll tell you.