30-09-2003 22:29									#1
	This is why the Israeli side is morally superior to the Palestinians. Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Today an Israeli court senteced three Jewish settlers who had formed an anti-Palestinian terror group & who had planned to blow up an Arab girls school in East Jerusalem to 12-15 years in prison. The Israelis arrest their militants and give them long jail sentences while the Palestinians cheer terrorists as heros and train their children to blow themselves up (ever seen the pictures of children as young a 3 dressed as suicide bombers?).

To contrast the Palestinian authority continues to protect terrorist leaders (by granting them diplomatic status or by hiding them in PA compounds), to promote terrorism, and to finance terrorist attacts. This is just another way the Israeli side is morally & ethically superior to the Palestinian side.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3151930.stm

	30-09-2003 22:33									#2
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Terrorism is terrorism

	30-09-2003 22:34									#3
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whether the government blows up some palestinians, or militias blow op some Pals, it's all the same to me

	30-09-2003 22:36									#4
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So you don't think the fact that Israel arrests Jewish terrorists while the PA gives Islamic terrorists weapons makes Israel morally superior?

Last edited by Oerdin on 30-09-2003 at 22:55

	30-09-2003 22:38									#5
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Not all Palestinians cheer the success of suicide bombers, nor are all Palestinian children raised to blow up Israelis; however, every Israeli does join the military, which is responsible for the deaths of numerous Palestinian civilians. Doesn't that make all Israelis terrible? (No, it doesn't, but I'm just trying to present the other side)

And, even assuming that this singular incident makes the Israelis morally superior when compared to a false perception of the entirety of Palestinian society, what's your point? What good does it do to blame the Palestinians or to condemn every last one of them or to portray the Israelis as superior?

	30-09-2003 22:40									#6
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I don't think that the punishment was harsh enough. But it's rather similar to palestinian cases, so that point is void. I was also very happy to see that the way the security forces, and the procedure was similar to palestinian terrorists. ( They were detained without court as well, etc. )

	30-09-2003 22:48									#7
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What are the implications, now that Israël is morally supiriour?

Is it now even more horendous (sp?) to blow up a city-bus in haifa?

Is it now less horendous when a palestinian civilian dies in gaza?

	30-09-2003 22:49									#8
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The fact the Israel is willing to prosecute and imprison their own shows the Israeli government is at least willing to try living side by side with Palestinians. The actions of the Palestinian Authority show that they are not interested in living side by side with Israelis. Thus, the Israeli government is worthy of our continued support and the Palestinian Authority is not. We must find a Palestinian faction that is willing to live side by side with Israelis and support them.

	30-09-2003 22:49									#9
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The bottom line is:

-Israel arrests terrorist, the Palestinians promote terrorist.

-The Israelis try to spare civilian life, the Palestinians deliberately target civilians.

-The Israelis have repeatedly offered peace over the last 60 years, the Palestinians have always rejected peace.

-The Israelis absorbed the thousands of Jewish refugees which Arab bigots throw out of Arab countries, the Arabs have refused to absorb the Palestinian refugees.

-Israeli schools teach that Arabs are good people but that specific Arab governments have bad policies, most Arab schools teach that Jews are evil and should be killed.

How can anyone try to claim there is moral equivalence between the two sides?

	30-09-2003 22:53									#10
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quote: Originally posted by pchang The fact the Israel is willing to prosecute and imprison their own shows the Israeli government is at least willing to try living side by side with Palestinians. The actions of the Palestinian Authority show that they are not interested in living side by side with Israelis. Thus, the Israeli government is worthy of our continued support and the Palestinian Authority is not. We must find a Palestinian faction that is willing to live side by side with Israelis and support them.

Exactly!

	30-09-2003 22:59									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Lorizael And, even assuming that this singular incident makes the Israelis morally superior when compared to a false perception of the entirety of Palestinian society, what's your point?

This is not a singular incident. The Israeli government has been fighting and arresting Jewish militants since the beginning of the Jewish state. Even the Jewish terror groups which took part in the 1948 war were arrested and put in prison. The fact is Israel has always tried to fight terrorism reguardless of which side the terrorist support where as the Palestinians have always promoted terrorism and deliberately targeted civilians.

	30-09-2003 23:13									#12
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This just goes to show you that not all solutions fit all problems for all countries; while it would be counterproductive here, if there were ever a country that needed legalized marijuana, it's Israel. They all need a nice big dose of apathetic giggly sloth...

	30-09-2003 23:17									#13
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Oh perleeaaasssee

First you don't define moral, second you tar all with one of two brushes. Bad troll

	30-09-2003 23:24									#14
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quote: How can anyone try to claim there is moral equivalence between the two sides?

Whose land was it in 1945?

quote: The Israelis try to spare civilian life, the Palestinians deliberately target civilians.

I've heard something like 3 x as many Palestinians have died as Isreali Jews, why?

quote: The Israelis have repeatedly offered peace over the last 60 years, the Palestinians have always rejected peace.

Have these offers of "peace" included a sovereign Palestinian state or just continued vassaldom?

quote: Israel arrests terrorist, the Palestinians promote terrorist.

Both sides elect them too.

quote: The Israelis absorbed the thousands of Jewish refugees which Arab bigots throw out of Arab countries, the Arabs have refused to absorb the Palestinian refugees.

Israel was created to absorb Jews, Arab dictatorships were not.

quote: Israeli schools teach that Arabs are good people but that specific Arab governments have bad policies, most Arab schools teach that Jews are evil and should be killed.

I've never taught or received an education at "most" Arab schools, have you? But if your people invaded my homeland, my people wouldn't be teaching our children how wonderful y'all are. It might take a while to forget enough to forgive...

quote: How can anyone try to claim there is moral equivalence between the two sides?

I sure wouldn't, it's strange how the US condemned aparthied in South Africa while funding it in Israel. But thanks in large part to this willingness of the US to take sides, Americans have become the targets of people like Al Qaida. I'm just curious as to why Palestinians aren't trying to come here for payback...

	30-09-2003 23:31									#15
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quote: Whose land was it in 1945?

The Brits'.

quote: I've heard something like 3 x as many Palestinians have died as Isreali Jews, why?

Heavier equipment.

quote: Have these offers of "peace" included a sovereign Palestinian state or just continued vassaldom?

A sovereign palestinian state.

quote: Both sides elect them too.

quote: Israel was created to absorb Jews, Arab dictatorships were not.

doesn't negate the material claims of the jews.

quote: I've never taught or received an education at "most" Arab schools, have you? But if your people invaded my homeland, my people wouldn't be teaching our children how wonderful y'all are. It might take a while to forget enough to forgive...

Bunch of bullshit. We had many wars with arab states, yet our education system doesn't tell us to kill as many arabs, etc.

quote: I sure wouldn't, it's strange how the US condemned aparthied in South Africa while funding it in Israel. But thanks in large part to this willingness of the US to take sides, Americans have become the targets of people like Al Qaida. I'm just curious as to why Palestinians aren't trying to come here for payback...

It isn't apartheid, since Israel has never established sovereignity over the palestinian population. ( And when it did, it granted citizenship. )

	30-09-2003 23:56									#16
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quote: The Brits'.

No, they were occupiers too who left after inviting others in to occupy the land.

quote: Heavier equipment.

Yup, how moral. And hardly a one-sided slaughter with Jews being the slaughtered.

quote: A sovereign palestinian state.

Is this what they teach in Jewish schools?

Confused? Weren't Arafat and Sharon (or was it some other Israeli PM?) "terrorists"? I've heard one Israeli PM bombed British soldiers to extradite their leaving.

quote: doesn't negate the material claims of the jews.

What material claims? A claim to someone else's land?

quote: Bunch of bullshit. We had many wars with arab states, yet our education system doesn't tell us to kill as many arabs, etc.

Does that mean you've been educated in most Arab schools? Btw, you ignored my point as to why one side has reason to teach one way while another doesn't.

quote: It isn't apartheid, since Israel has never established sovereignity over the palestinian population. ( And when it did, it granted citizenship. )

I'll quote you: "bunch of bullsh!t". The country was established to impose sovereignty on others.

	01-10-2003 00:11									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker No, they were occupiers too who left after inviting others in to occupy the land.

hmmm, so what country isn't the occupier?.... let's see where this historical path takes us.

quote: Yup, how moral. And hardly a one-sided slaughter with Jews being the slaughtered.

noone said it was a one-sided slaughter. However, If you once again fail to make the distinction between combatants, and civilians, between intentional killing, and unintentional, this discussion is void.

quote: Is this what they teach in Jewish schools?

quote: Confused? Weren't Arafat and Sharon (or was it some other Israeli PM?) "terrorists"? I've heard one Israeli PM bombed British soldiers to extradite their leaving.

No, Sharon wasn't participating in such actions. He does have a lot to answer in the Lebanon case, but that's old fashioned geo-political 'adventures', not terrorisms.

quote: What material claims? A claim to someone else's land?

Among the rest. The hundreds of thousands of jews left a lot of posessions in the arab world, among them, land.

quote: Does that mean you've been educated in most Arab schools? Btw, you ignored my point as to why one side has reason to teach one way while another doesn't.

I seriously don't understand what you mean. Is the mere fact that there is continued Israeli occupation enough to distinguish it from regular wars? I don't think so.

quote: I'll quote you: "bunch of bullsh!t". The country was established to impose sovereignty on others.

The country was established. It's goal was to provide a homeland for the jewish people, as a sovereign country. It granted citizenship all over it's sovereign territory. Where's the apartheid?

	01-10-2003 00:26									#18
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Neither cause is morally superior to the other... and there are extremist factions on each side causing problems. The difference, IMO, is the methods. The Israeli's don't target innocent civilians... the terrorists do. But the moderate Palestinians have just as just a cause as the moderate Israelis. The problem is the extremists. The Pal extremists want the total annhilation of Israel, the Israeli extremists want one state, and the complete annexation of the historical Holy Land. Both sides have enough power and hatred to force the rest of the people into a brutal war. It is a war, BTW... perhaps not in the traditional sense... but still a war.

	01-10-2003 00:26									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Whose land was it in 1945? [quote] A British mandate with a 40-60 Jew Arab population split. [quote] I've heard something like 3 x as many Palestinians have died as Isreali Jews, why?

Mostly this has to do with Arab military incompetence. The main reason the Arab militants have resorted to terrorism is because they have made such dismal failures as soldiers.

quote: Have these offers of "peace" included a sovereign Palestinian state or just continued vassaldom?

The two state solution has been offered by Israel since 1948. From 1948-1967 the Palestinians were backstabbed by their Arab "brothers" who stole the best bank and Gaza from them. After 1967 Israel offered a fully independent Palestinian if the Palestinians would 1)stop seeking to destroy Israel 2) recognize Israel's right to exist 3)Prevent terrorist attacks. This offer has been more or less continously on the table yet the Palestinians have never accepted.

In 1979 the Egyptians accepted a true peace and so the Sinai was returned to them. In 1994 the Jordanians excepted, yet, Syria and Palestine have never accepted. To this day the PA continues to call for the destruction of the state of Israel and finances terrorist attacks.

quote: Israel was created to absorb Jews, Arab dictatorships were not.

Actually Israel was created to absorb Jews. It was the stated declaration of Israel's Independence and was sanctified by the United Nations. If the Israeli's can provide new homes to Jews who were run out of Muslim countries then it is reasonable to expect Arab countries to resettle their people. The Arabs never have though instead they keep the Palestinians as a perminent refugee population.

quote: I sure wouldn't, it's strange how the US condemned aparthied in South Africa while funding it in Israel.

First off there is no apartied in Israel; that has always been a lie. We worked against apartied in South Africa because it was morally wrong and could not be justified. Israel has geniune security concerns brought about by 50 years of Arab militantism and the many terrorist attacks. Now let me enlighten you to another fact; the difference in Israel is not racial and mainly it isn't even religous. The main difference is between Israeli citizens (Jew or Arab) who are allowed to move freely in Israel and no citizens living in the West Bank & Gaza who are resricted access to Israel. Since Palestinians are not Israeli citizens and are their own national group it makes sense they be treated like any other noncitizen nationality with reguards to immigration or travel.

	01-10-2003 00:27									#20
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Azazel, you've gotten a new supporter of Israel

	01-10-2003 00:31									#21
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Oerdin, how could blame the Palestinians for all those "evils" when it boils down to the presence and control of just one evil man, Arafat. I think that once this man is gone, men of peace could be elected in Palestine.

Again, why the US, the EU, the UN and the Russian coddle Arafat is a mystery. We should rather demand that he be arrested and removed to the Haque for trial for crimes against humanity.

I expect the American appeasement policy stems from State. We must have deals with others, like the Saudi's, to protect Arafat in exhange for certain "cooperation." However, someone has to realize at some time, that the whole ME situation would improve if that man were gone. No such deal is more important than removing Arafat.

	01-10-2003 00:33									#22
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Thanks. However, it's not supporters what we really need, It's a true end to this mess. Some things make me think that it's very far from us. The more I see trends in the world, the more I feel S. Huntington is right.

	01-10-2003 00:35									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker No, they were occupiers too who left after inviting others in to occupy the land.

Ignorant. If you learn a bit about history you will learn that the League of Nations made the UK the legal controller of the area and this was agreed to in treaty with the Turks who previously controlled the territory. Further the creation of the state of Israel was fully blessed by the UN and Israel was made owner of everything in side the 1967 borders.

BTW I notice you avoid the real point of this thread; the fact that Israel punishes its extremists while the Palestinians promote and help their terrorists.

	01-10-2003 00:36									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin The bottom line is: -Israel arrests terrorist, the Palestinians promote terrorist. -The Israelis try to spare civilian life, the Palestinians deliberately target civilians. -The Israelis have repeatedly offered peace over the last 60 years, the Palestinians have always rejected peace. -The Israelis absorbed the thousands of Jewish refugees which Arab bigots throw out of Arab countries, the Arabs have refused to absorb the Palestinian refugees. -Israeli schools teach that Arabs are good people but that specific Arab governments have bad policies, most Arab schools teach that Jews are evil and should be killed. How can anyone try to claim there is moral equivalence between the two sides?

	01-10-2003 00:39									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Neither cause is morally superior to the other... and there are extremist factions on each side causing problems. The difference, IMO, is the methods. The Israeli's don't target innocent civilians... the terrorists do. But the moderate Palestinians have just as just a cause as the moderate Israelis. The problem is the extremists. The Pal extremists want the total annhilation of Israel, the Israeli extremists want one state, and the complete annexation of the historical Holy Land. Both sides have enough power and hatred to force the rest of the people into a brutal war. It is a war, BTW... perhaps not in the traditional sense... but still a war.

Sava: You are wrong and here is why. If one side upholds the rule of law and punishes it's extremeists while the other side does nothing but help terrorists then one side clearly is morally superior. You may not want to admite this but deep down you know it is true.

	01-10-2003 00:39									#26
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quote: A sovereign palestinian state.

The offered state was split up into 5 cantons, without control over its water resources, borders, or air space. Doesn't seem all that sovereign to me.

	01-10-2003 00:40									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Sava The Israeli's don't target innocent civilians.

Yes they do. Israeli snipers pick off non-combatants all the time.

	01-10-2003 00:43									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo The offered state was split up into 5 cantons, without control over its water resources, borders, or air space. Doesn't seem all that sovereign to me.

Link?

	01-10-2003 00:44									#29
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Nah, just the commies.

	01-10-2003 00:44									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin If you learn a bit about history you will learn that the League of Nations made the UK the legal controller of the area

So a council of thieves gave the biggest thief the land. There was a revolution. The Arabs had overthrown the Turks with Brit help. To take their "Leage" alloted protectorates, though, they had to invade, and bomb, and conquer these aeras from the Arab people.

The Allies had promised the Arabs independence, the Jews Palestine, and themelves the oil. They only kept one of those promises.