02-10-2003 12:00									#31
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"How so?"

Just look at the guy, you can tell from his haircut that he's a schmuck. And a putz, too.

	02-10-2003 12:48									#32
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Tom Jackson kicks ass.

Well, sort of...

	02-10-2003 16:09									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Another interesting thing is if you see the actual clip of the show, Rush was talking to Tom Jackson, a black man, and he didn't show that he was offended at all. In fact he nodded when Rush said the media was trying to promote black QBs and coaches.

That doesn't necesarily mean anything. Experienced journalists will always nod their heads during an interview or discussion. It's basic body language designed to keep the other person talking.

	02-10-2003 16:20									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui On another thread someone made a great point... people were outraged when others boycotted the Dixie Chicks for making their anti-President comments, because of freedom of speech. Some of these same people asked ABC to fire Rush. Ironic, no?

No.

There's a big difference between saying "I don't like this guy" (a true statement) and "The only reason he got the job is because he is black and there is a secret conspiracy to make black QBs look good and to give them more credit then they deserve."

Limburgh's comments were racist. Instead of judging McNabb on his ability (of lack of it), Limburgh said black quarterbacks don't deserve the credit that they receive.

	02-10-2003 16:21									#35
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Tingkai, if Rush's comments were so "racist", I'd think his comments made to the face of a black man would garner some negative reaction, not nods of agreement even if the nods are just facilitators of continued discussion.

Geez you guys, Rush made 2 points:

1) McNabb isn't as good as portrayed in the sports media
2) Some in the sports media have hyped him because they wanted a black QB to succeed.

Other than the possible racism of those in the sports media who are guilty (if Rush is right), where is this "racism"?

	02-10-2003 16:34									#36
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quote: There's a big difference between saying "I don't like this guy" (a true statement)

Limbaugh doesn't like him?

quote: and "The only reason he got the job is because he is black and there is a secret conspiracy to make black QBs look good and to give them more credit then they deserve."

Limbaugh said McNabb didn't deserve the job of QB? No, he said McNabb is a good QB but that he was hyped beyond his value to the team and that the defense (which has quite a few blacks on it ) was the strength of the team.

quote: Limbaugh's comments were racist. Instead of judging McNabb on his ability (of lack of it), Limburgh said black quarterbacks don't deserve the credit that they receive.

He did judge him on his ability and he didn't say black QB's get credit they don't deserve, he said McNabb gets credit he doesn't deserve.

If a black boxing analyst pointed out how almost every new white boxer who shows some promise gets hyped because he's white and there are so few really good white heavyweights, would that be racist? Of course not...

	02-10-2003 16:58									#37
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Who would be so dumb as to hire Rush Limbaugh as a "colour commentator"?

Er, anyone happen to know when Culpepper's going to be back?

	02-10-2003 19:28									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Limbaugh doesn't like him?

The bit about not liking someone was a reference to the Dixie Chicks' comments mentioned by Imran. Try to follow the plot Bezerker

quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Limbaugh said McNabb didn't deserve the job of QB? No, he said McNabb is a good QB but that he was hyped beyond his value to the team and that the defense (which has quite a few blacks on it ) was the strength of the team. He did judge him on his ability and he didn't say black QB's get credit they don't deserve, he said McNabb gets credit he doesn't deserve.

According to Limbaugh, the media have a conspiracy to promote Black QBs, McNabb is a Black QB , therefore McNabb is over-rated. That's not a true judgement of McNabb's ability.

Limbaugh looked at McNabb and saw a black Quarterback, not an individual athlete. Limbaugh did not look at McNabb's stats or those non-measurable individual abilities. Limbaugh cast judgement on the basis of McNabb's skin colour.

This is not a judgement of McNabb's ability. This is a racist attack against a black QB.

	02-10-2003 19:50									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker 1) McNabb isn't as good as portrayed in the sports media 2) Some in the sports media have hyped him because they wanted a black QB to succeed. Other than the possible racism of those in the sports media who are guilty (if Rush is right), where is this "racism"?

Yeah, I agree with this one. I don't think it's any more racist than the same football commentators who lament the lack of black coaches in the NFL, or wonder why coaches like Art Shell or Ray Rhodes being fired is part of some conspiracy by " The Man".

It sounds like two separate comments and doesn't disparage Macnabb directly.

	02-10-2003 19:51									#40
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'Tis interesting that Rush did not particularly attack any black people per se, but because he was attacking the *system* of pointing out race, and since that system is often associated with people who oppose racism, his comment was automatically construed as racist.

On the other hand, I can't feel sorry for him. If people suspect you're a Neo-Nazi, you stay away from making any comments that are derogatory and involve Jews. If people suspect you're racist, as basically everyone suspects Limbaugh is, you stay away from comments that are derogatory and involve blacks, even if a logical person can eventually figure out it's not racist.

And the REAL disturbing part about this incident: that football commentary is an important enough political issue to have the leading (?) Democratic candidate make a statement on it.

	02-10-2003 20:13									#41
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I can't understand you guys. I make a very funny thread about Warner's wife and her desire to trade her husband...and I get ZERo answers. And now you want to discuss at lenght this "he said, he said" thing about some unknown (to me) commenting why McNabb is overrated..who cares!!!

j/k of course

	02-10-2003 20:20									#42
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"Another interesting thing is if you see the actual clip of the show, Rush was talking to Tom Jackson, a black man, and he didn't show that he was offended at all. In fact he nodded when Rush said the media was trying to promote black QBs and coaches."

Tom Jackson's a professional. He won't say anything while the cameras are rolling. It doesn't mean he didn't want to.
Bet he wound up sleeping on the couch that night, though.

"Geez you guys, Rush made 2 points:

1) McNabb isn't as good as portrayed in the sports media
2) Some in the sports media have hyped him because they wanted a black QB to succeed."

That's possible, but Rush didn't offer anything as evidence. And considering it's Rush, he had a burden of proof, b/c:

1)Rush attacks the "liberal media" a lot in his diatribes;
2)He also attacks minorities a lot.

"On the other hand, I can't feel sorry for him. If people suspect you're a Neo-Nazi, you stay away from making any comments that are derogatory and involve Jews. If people suspect you're racist, as basically everyone suspects Limbaugh is, you stay away from comments that are derogatory and involve blacks, even if a logical person can eventually figure out it's not racist."

What I've tried to say, only written more clearly.

	02-10-2003 20:22									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Sloth I can't understand you guys. I make a very funny thread about Warner's wife and her desire to trade her husband...and I get ZERo answers.

I'm sure it was VERY clever.

	02-10-2003 20:51									#44
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Several points of mine.

1. If a famous black guy said "Strahan is an overrated CB, people just want to see a white guy be good at defending the ball", we wouldn't have a thread on it.
2. What this black guy would say is bigotted and doesn't need to be said, but is true.
3. How what Rush said is being interpretted in biggoted fashion and desn't need to blown out of proportion. Unless your a biggoted racist...
4. Rush did not say that he doesn't think McNabb is bad because he is black, he said he is overrated and because he is balck was given many more chances than he deserves by certain people in the NFL. If anything he called these "certain people" in the NFL bigots and racist.

	02-10-2003 21:35									#45
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Have you guys never heard of Warren Moon? Clearly Limbaugh hasn't. I guarantee that sports writers have.

So exactly why would any sports writer feel a need to promote black QB when there has already been a great one?

Limbaugh was playing the race card, trying to suggest that black QB get it easy when there's no proof and no reason for that to happen.

	03-10-2003 00:44									#46
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Two points:

1) The attack on Rush and demands that he resign came primarily from the liberal politicians that Rush attacks daily on his show. So this really is a effort to squelch political speech. Those debating this issue should focus on who is saying what and why.

2) The controversy and the firing of Rush ensures that PC will prevail permanently in sports broadcasting in the US. This has got to be bad for sports and for the US.

	03-10-2003 01:16									#47
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Well, it looks like they got rid of him.

Maybe Herve Villechaize should give espn a call.

	03-10-2003 01:39									#48
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quote: I've lost some respect for McNabb and Wesley Clark

Yeh, Clark is blathering on about any and all subjects now. What makes him an expert on this stuff?

	03-10-2003 02:11									#49
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quote: That doesn't necesarily mean anything. Experienced journalists will always nod their heads during an interview or discussion. It's basic body language designed to keep the other person talking.

No, it does mean something. These weren't spur of the moment comments. Chris Berman has stated that Rush read his statement before they actually went on the air and no one said it was insensitive. The "Rush Challenge" is a planned segment, not a random thing.

quote: Limburgh's comments were racist. Instead of judging McNabb on his ability (of lack of it), Limburgh said black quarterbacks don't deserve the credit that they receive.

Bull. Limbaugh didn't say anything about black QBs in general. In fact, he likes McNair who happens to be a black QB. He said that McNabb is an overrated QB, who tends not to get critisized for his shortcomings because the media wants a black QB to succeed. That isn't a racist statement. He never said black QBs are worse, but that McNabb, as a black QBs, doesn't get critisized as much as he perhaps should be because the media doesn't want to bring black QBs down (a sort of Affirmative Action in the media).

quote: 'Tis interesting that Rush did not particularly attack any black people per se, but because he was attacking the *system* of pointing out race, and since that system is often associated with people who oppose racism, his comment was automatically construed as racist.

I agree totally.

quote: If a famous black guy said "Strahan is an overrated CB, people just want to see a white guy be good at defending the ball", we wouldn't have a thread on it.

Yep, but you mean Sehorn... this is especially gaulling considering Sehorn's nickname is 'The Great White Hope'!!! Many, many, many people have made the comment that Sehorn is overhyped because he IS a white CB. Limbaugh turned it around and used it on McNabb, but he's taken over the coals. Funny thing, this idea of 'equality' we have

quote: So exactly why would any sports writer feel a need to promote black QB when there has already been a great one?

Because Moon could well be the exception. I don't think Limbaugh is totally 100% wrong. I start to look at how extraordinarily hyped black QBs such as Kordell Stewart have been and wonder if Limbaugh has a point. Funny thing is if Limbaugh said the exact same thing he did about Stewart, he'd probably get away with it.

	03-10-2003 02:17									#50
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quote: Yep, but you mean Sehorn... this is especially gaulling considering Sehorn's nickname is 'The Great White Hope'!!! Many, many, many people have made the comment that Sehorn is overhyped because he IS a white CB.

I had a brainfart... thanks for the correction

quote: Because Moon could well be the exception. I don't think Limbaugh is totally 100% wrong. I start to look at how extraordinarily hyped black QBs such as Kordell Stewart have been and wonder if Limbaugh has a point. Funny thing is if Limbaugh said the exact same thing he did about Stewart, he'd probably get away with it.

Moon was average. He was good enough to play in the NFL, didn't get a lot of hype, and played well for a long time... Thus, no need to comment.

Yet, we ARE seeing more and more black quarterbacks entering the NFL as is the case that they are turning into a passing RB... Vick - overrated Stewart - was overrated, now... well we know, NcNair - probably well rated, I think he is pretty good, McNabb definitly overrated... Brooks - a lot worse than he could be.

I would be just as inclined to say that Gumble is the token black announcer. I mean, how the hell did that guy get the job? And then poor Denis Green needing to be interviewed for any job because of the NFLs "interview a black guy" clause. Perhaps there is an unwritten "law" about increasing black QB popularity...

	03-10-2003 02:19									#51
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I forgot about Brooks... DEFINETLY overrated!! They talk about him like he is amazing and he's not even average.

Oh, and also people tend to forget that later in the show Limbaugh also talked about Warner and Testaverde as overrated QBs (because they are nice guys). I think that shows his overall point was that the media sometimes overinflates QBs that they like, for whatever reason.

	03-10-2003 02:23									#52
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I think this shows that Clark, et. al. are actually overly concerned about being PC, and to me, that makes them the racists... No one threw a fit. No one that is, but a bunch of white yuppies.

	03-10-2003 03:46									#53
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Thanks guys, I didn't expect to see this thread on page 1, nobody seemed interested last night.

ACK!

	03-10-2003 09:22									#54
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Tingkai -

quote: The bit about not liking someone was a reference to the Dixie Chicks' comments mentioned by Imran. Try to follow the plot Bezerker

Oops

This threw me off the plot:

quote: There's a big difference between saying "I don't like this guy" (a true statement) and "The only reason he got the job is because he is black and there is a secret conspiracy to make black QBs look good and to give them more credit then they deserve."

While Imran mentioned both the Dixie Chicks and Rush/McNabb, you didn't mention the former, just the latter.

quote: According to Limbaugh, the media have a conspiracy to promote Black QBs, McNabb is a Black QB , therefore McNabb is over-rated. That's not a true judgement of McNabb's ability.

He didn't call it a conspiracy, just that there is a sentiment among certain people in the sports media to see blacks succeed at positions like QB (and coach). I've heard plenty of people complain that blacks weren't given these positions because of a perceived lack of intelligence so why is it surprising some people want to see blacks succeed at these positions when given the opportunity and that this hope might translate into hyping black players?

quote: Limbaugh looked at McNabb and saw a black Quarterback, not an individual athlete.

He is a black QB.

quote: Limbaugh did not look at McNabb's stats or those non-measurable individual abilities. Limbaugh cast judgement on the basis of McNabb's skin colour.

Please follow the plot , Rush said McNabb was not as good as portrayed by certain media people. He didn't base his judgement of McNabb's ability on his skin color, he concluded some people in the media act differently toward him based on his skin color.

quote: This is not a judgement of McNabb's ability. This is a racist attack against a black QB.

Did Rush say McNabb sucks because he's black? No. Did he say McNabb sucks? No. What did he say? He said...or forget it...

Theben -

quote: That's possible, but Rush didn't offer anything as evidence. And considering it's Rush, he had a burden of proof, b/c:

He did offer evidence, he said the Philly "D" made up mostly of blacks deserves more credit and I tend to agree.

Imran -

quote: Yep, but you mean Sehorn... this is especially gaulling considering Sehorn's nickname is 'The Great White Hope'!!! Many, many, many people have made the comment that Sehorn is overhyped because he IS a white CB.

EXACTLY! When a white guy is in a position dominated by another race, hope springs eternal. When a black guy is in a position dominated by another race, the same phenomenon.
We have to remember Rush wasn't talking about today's black QB's, some of whom are reaching the pinnacle at that position.
He said "from the get go" meaning there was hope of a star QB in the making in McNabbs early career.

	03-10-2003 10:20									#55
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The only thing Rush said about McNabb was that he's not as good as certain people claim, the rest of his comment was about the motives of the people. Think about it...

	03-10-2003 10:34									#56
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Berz speaks the truth.

	03-10-2003 10:41									#57
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Even a blind chicken stumbles upon a kernel of corn occasionally.

	03-10-2003 11:15									#58
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Now, Limbaugh did say something rather stupid at the talk radio convention today concerning his dismissal/resignation from ESPN. Paraphrasing: we have in this country a 1st Amendment preserving our freedom of speech to offer opinions but the reality is there are places and times when you can't offer your opinion.

Ahem...Rush... your freedom of speech doesn't mean ESPN must hire you or keep you employed to offer your opinions.
Freedom of speech doesn't mean other people can't criticise you. Now Rush, were you condemning the Dixie Chicks for what one of them said about Bush in London? Were you among those calling for a boycott of their music? Or were you defending their freedom of speech reminding your audience about our freedom to offer opinions when and where we want?

	03-10-2003 11:26									#59
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What Limbaugh did was play the race card which is a stupid thing to do when talking about pro sports these days.

With all the money involved in pro sports, the best players rise to the top, regardless of race.

Every team has cheerleaders disguised as sports writers. Players of all colours routinely get over hyped.

Race is a non-factor and only an idiot like Limbaugh would use race to criticise someone.

	03-10-2003 12:08									#60
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quote: Originally posted by monolith94 "How so?" Just look at the guy, you can tell from his haircut that he's a schmuck. And a putz, too.

Those who live in glass houses.....