03-10-2003 12:16									#61
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Tingkai -

quote: What Limbaugh did was play the race card which is a stupid thing to do when talking about pro sports these days.

What is "the race card"?

quote: Every team has cheerleaders disguised as sports writers. Players of all colours routinely get over hyped. Race is a non-factor and only an idiot like Limbaugh would use race to criticise someone.

So overhyping does occur? Aren't the potential motives of these overhypers open to scutiny even when skin color is a factor? I've heard black commentators refer to how white players/athletes get hyped in sports where whites have lost dominance, boxing being the most obvious. That wasn't racist, it was true...

	03-10-2003 13:49									#62
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quote: When a black guy is in a position dominated by another race, the same phenomenon. We have to remember Rush wasn't talking about today's black QB's, some of whom are reaching the pinnacle at that position. He said "from the get go" meaning there was hope of a star QB in the making in McNabbs early career.

I agree. I think that there may be a very slight (not as much as Rush thinks) bias in the media towards black QBs. Me and Japher just took more than a few that are overrated, and I believe the reason may be because for a very, very long time it was said that blacks couldn't be QBs because they weren't intelligent enough. I think it may be a slight overcompensation for that. I also do think that some sportswriters want to see a black QB win an MVP award to erase the idea of the black QB not being smart enough for the job.

You make a great point about boxing. I've heard Rush's comments, almost exact, in dealing with white boxers. Basically some commentators will say that certain white boxers are overrated and it is because they are white. The fact that certain players can still be labeled the 'Great White Hope' indicates Limbaugh's comments aren't that out of line... at least if you are refering to white people.

	03-10-2003 22:29									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Tingkai - What is "the race card"?

The race card is introducting race into something where racism did not exist. Limbaugh has poisoned something that was a utopia, something that was an example that we should strive for.

Twenty years ago, racism was widespread in professional sports. Back then people said the Japanese didn't have what it takes to succeed in MLB. Blacks didn't have the smarts to be an NFL QB. Blacks and Asians didn't have what it takes to be a great NHL player.

By 2003, we knew these attitudes were crap. We saw the successful Japanese MLB players. We saw great black QBs. We knew that blacks and Asians could play hockey.

We had reached a point where athletes were judged on the cold hard objective stats.

If someone had said two weeks ago that McNabb was over-rated, we would have looked at the stats, and what we saw on the field. We probably would have said that people think McNabb is good because the Eagles went to the NFC championship. But only a nutcase would have looked at his skin colour.

Limbaugh changed all that with his poison. He played his audience and tapped into their hatred, and that was the hatred against affirmative action.

He said people are promoting McNabb because he is black and they want to a black QB to succeed. What he was really saying is that black QBS are being promoted beyond their ability by affirmative action.

And people bought it hook, line and sinker, because it played their deep hatred against AA.

Look at what happened in this thread. People were more than willing to believe the poison.

And that's what pisses me off. We had a fragile utopia where people where judged on their individual abilities, and it has been destroyed by Limbaugh's poison. Instead of looking at McNabb the quarterback, people see him as McNabb, the black guy who is getting an unfair advantage.

But we can fight the poison. Don't buy into the sh!t that McNabb is over-rated because he is black. IF he is over-rated, it is because the Eagles went to the NFC championship, plain and simple. Judge him on the objective stats. Judge him on his ability to create magic on the field. Don't judge him on his skin colour.

	03-10-2003 22:35									#64
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Tingkai, You make valid points here. This points out why Rush should not have been fired, but should have been subect to grilling by Jackson, Irvin et al. on Sunday's broadcast.

	03-10-2003 22:38									#65
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I'd fire him because we don't need his poison, and because he doesn't know football.

His whole Sh!t theory that sports writers want to see a successful black QB is idiotic. Warren Moon won five CFL championship, he was an NFL QB for something like 15 years (and no one lasts that long if they're just average), and Moon was in the top 10 for stats for something like eight years. For Limbaugh to say what he said, shows that he don't know nothing about football.

	03-10-2003 22:45									#66
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Tingkai, So fire him but not debate him? Tingkai, you really do not understand the basic concepts of free speech.

As to whether McNabb is overrated, I saw him destroy my Chicago Bears in a playoff game. I have no illusions that McNabb is good.

	03-10-2003 22:52									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Tingkai, So fire him but not debate him? Tingkai, you really do not understand the basic concepts of free speech.

Ned, we have different concepts of free speech. You believe that evil can be debated and destroyed. That's a very 19th century liberal concept.

I say the 20th century shows the danger of allowing poisonous speech to flow free. Demogogues know how to tap into basic fears and to fan the flames of hatred. We should not tolerate that, just as we do not tolerate slander and libel.

	03-10-2003 22:56									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Tingkai, So fire him but not debate him? Tingkai, you really do not understand the basic concepts of free speech.

Free speech? No one was limiting Rush's right to spew whatever vitriol he wants. Just as ESPN has the right to force him out whenever they want.

Rush can say whatever he wants, and is lucky enough to have his own radio show to do it. But ESPN wanted no part of it. This doesn't have anything to do with free speech being compromised.

	03-10-2003 22:59									#69
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quote: believe the reason may be because for a very, very long time it was said that blacks couldn't be QBs because they weren't intelligent enough

Just want to point out that Brooks got the lowest score on the "IQ" test that NFL has you take on entrance (for head injury reasons), for the year he entered... I do not think this statement is entirelly false. Yet, at the same time, I think football is a game of instinct as much as a game of intelligence.

Rush should not of been fired because he was required to submit his comments (including this one) for review prior to showing. It is just as much the network execs fault as it was Rush's and they just used him as a 'scapegoat. If ESPN does not want to allow freedom of speech then they don't have to, but they need to hold all those accountable for this action and just not the spokesperson... To me it would be like if David Schwimmer said "Nigger" on Friends so they fire David even though it was written in the script.

	03-10-2003 23:07									#70
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Heh, looks like I've been posting in the wrong thread.

	03-10-2003 23:08									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Jac de Molay Free speech? No one was limiting Rush's right to spew whatever vitriol he wants. Just as ESPN has the right to force him out whenever they want. Rush can say whatever he wants, and is lucky enough to have his own radio show to do it. But ESPN wanted no part of it. This doesn't have anything to do with free speech being compromised.

I just saw a blurb from Wes Clark who was saying that "We are not a country that suppresses dissent" and other words to that effect. Of course he is talking about the CIA agent leak issue.

However, just yesterday

Clark was prominent in calling for the firing of Limbaugh!

Hypocrit!

	03-10-2003 23:11									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Ned, we have different concepts of free speech. You believe that evil can be debated and destroyed. That's a very 19th century liberal concept. I say the 20th century shows the danger of allowing poisonous speech to flow free. Demogogues know how to tap into basic fears and to fan the flames of hatred. We should not tolerate that, just as we do not tolerate slander and libel.

Yes, we have very different concepts of free speech. I hold to the concept that people have the right to express even the most outrageous of ideas and that we all have a duty to defend that person's right to say it. I believe that there is not middle ground on this issue. There is no grey area where we can suppress the opinions and voices of some. I believe in a free society and in free speech.

	03-10-2003 23:20									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Jac de Molay Free speech? No one was limiting Rush's right to spew whatever vitriol he wants. Just as ESPN has the right to force him out whenever they want.

If ESPN fires Rush because of demand from prominent Democrat politicians is this not a violation of the constitution? ESPN may have right to fire him as they please, but not as a result of coercion from politicians.

	04-10-2003 00:00									#74
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quote: If ESPN fires Rush because of demand from prominent Democrat politicians is this not a violation of the constitution?

They can fire him because of that, or they can fire him for having a booger hanging out of his nose on camera. Neither constitutes any Constitutional violation whatsoever. His right to free speech is mutually exclusive of any decision ESPN has on his employment status.

quote: just saw a blurb from Wes Clark who was saying that "We are not a country that suppresses dissent" and other words to that effect. Of course he is talking about the CIA agent leak issue.

Clark's referring to suppression of dissent by government, vis a vis the Bush administration. This has nothing to do about a private company's decision regarding perceived offensive behavior in the workplace. Shame on you for not recognizing the difference.

	04-10-2003 00:06									#75
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Jac, I know the legal distinction between government and private action and how it affects the constitution. However, what I was asking about is a grey area. Suppression of political opinion as a result of threats and calls from political candidates.

In "democracies" of SW Asia, it is common practice to suppress opposition parties by filing libel suits against political oponents. No one who observes the result of this "wholly private" action can doubt that the main threat to free speech comes from political candidates that try to suppress the speech of their political opponents.

	04-10-2003 00:23									#76
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McNabb got into the play-offs last year. He can't be that overrated.

Anyway, what Limbaugh said was the equivalent of saying to a Black person, you're only here because of Affirmative Action, i.e., you really aren't good enough to be here and the only reason you are is because of your skin color.

That's a racist comment. Did anyone expect any different though from Rush? He is a racist, sexist pig after all.

	04-10-2003 00:36									#77
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara McNabb got into the play-offs last year. He can't be that overrated. Anyway, what Limbaugh said was the equivalent of saying to a Black person, you're only here because of Affirmative Action, i.e., you really aren't good enough to be here and the only reason you are is because of your skin color. That's a racist comment.

Rush's comment said nothing connecting race with innate ability, so I fail to see how this can be viewed as racist. The fact is, (not that what Rush said about this particular footballer was necessarily correct) there are people who are given special consideration because of their race. Pointing this out is not racist.

	04-10-2003 00:39									#78
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Says mister, never met a Black he didn't think was inferior.

	04-10-2003 00:43									#79
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quote: Anyway, what Limbaugh said was the equivalent of saying to a Black person, you're only here because of Affirmative Action, i.e., you really aren't good enough to be here and the only reason you are is because of your skin color. That's a racist comment.

So it's ok to say it about someone like Jason Sehorn, who is white?

quote: McNabb got into the play-offs last year. He can't be that overrated.

The point was that Philly D carried that team. And McNabb, if you look at all the stats, is pretty overrated.

quote: Warren Moon won five CFL championship, he was an NFL QB for something like 15 years (and no one lasts that long if they're just average), and Moon was in the top 10 for stats for something like eight years.

I still fail to see what Moon has to do with this? Saying McNabb is overrated because the media wants a black QB to succeed does not mean that every black QB is not good. That's quite a huge jump to take, almost as big as saying McNabb is solely overrated because a preference for a black QB to do well.

quote: We had reached a point where athletes were judged on the cold hard objective stats.

That's such utter and complete bullshit, its incredible. Sports hasn't reached a utopia at all. You still have people who believe Sehorn was hyped because he was white and those that think that Ed McCaffery, Ricky Proehl, and Joe Jurivicious are simply spoken highly about because they are white WRs.

The judging on skin color has just changed to another color.

	04-10-2003 00:47									#80
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Says mister, never met a Black he didn't think was inferior.

Just goes to show you don't know **** about me. I resent that comment.

Can't you distinguish between someone who believes the average abilities of of different races are different (i.e. there are plenty of individual exceptions), and someone who believes that all (insert race X here) are inferior to (insert race Y here)??

You are being very unfair. I think I deserve better than unprovoked insults from you.

	04-10-2003 00:49									#81
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quote: McNabb got into the play-offs last year. He can't be that overrated.

So. Look at the last 3 Superbowl winning QBs: Johnson, Brady, and Dilfer... Not really great QBs, and they aren't overrated...

	04-10-2003 01:16									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Yes, we have very different concepts of free speech. I hold to the concept that people have the right to express even the most outrageous of ideas and that we all have a duty to defend that person's right to say it. I believe that there is not middle ground on this issue. There is no grey area where we can suppress the opinions and voices of some. I believe in a free society and in free speech.

Of course you say that. I did some hacking and found out that you're convicted pedophile.





Surely you agree that there are justified limits on free speech.

	04-10-2003 01:19									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui I still fail to see what Moon has to do with this?

Because it exposes Limbaugh's lie.

He claims that sports writers want to create a successful black QB, but why would they when we already have a successful black QB - Warren Moon.

	04-10-2003 01:20									#84
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quote: He claims that sports writers want to create a successful black QB

I think he meant in the present day...

	04-10-2003 01:22									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui That's such utter and complete bullshit, its incredible. Sports hasn't reached a utopia at all. You still have people who believe Sehorn was hyped because he was white and those that think that Ed McCaffery, Ricky Proehl, and Joe Jurivicious are simply spoken highly about because they are white WRs. The judging on skin color has just changed to another color.

We'll always have idiots claiming racism. There are idiots out there who say that Brodeur is only a good goalie cause of the Devils' defence and system. But I'm not talking about the lunatic frine. I'm talking about whether race is a factor in getting on a team, and the average perception of what makes a good athlete.

	04-10-2003 01:23									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Japher I think he meant in the present day...

Well what's the motivation? Why is there a need to manufacture something that already exists?

	04-10-2003 01:25									#87
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quote: Why is there a need to manufacture something that already exists?

Moon is the old model. The NFL needs something, uh I mean someone to market to all the black kids wanting to be QB today.

	04-10-2003 01:26									#88
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quote: He claims that sports writers want to create a successful black QB, but why would they when we already have a successful black QB - Warren Moon.

Has Warren Moon ever won an MVP? And after Moon was in the NFL, did sportswriters stop talking about the lack of black QBs in the NFL? No and no. I rest my case.

And, of course, there is always the 'exception' argument. That Moon is the exception to the rule.

The fact remains that the one position on the football field where whites dominate over blacks is QB. There are not many black starting QBs in the league, especially when you compare to the percentages of blacks in other positions.

quote: I'm talking about whether race is a factor in getting on a team, and the average perception of what makes a good athlete.

And you are making an amazing jump. Rush never said that QBs who are black are not good, he is saying that some of them are overrated because of their race. I read an article that said if Limbaugh used Kordell Stewart as his example, you'd have a much more balanced (and perhaps vicious) debate. He never said that since McNabb is black he is the Eagles QB and never said that he wasn't a good athelete. He said that the media overrates him and that is because they want to see a black QB succeed in the league and finally win an MVP award.

	04-10-2003 01:28									#89
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Interesting article I found on Slate:

http://slate.msn.com/id/2089193/

quote: Rush Limbaugh Was Right Donovan McNabb isn't a great quarterback, and the media do overrate him because he is black. By Allen Barra Posted Thursday, October 2, 2003, at 3:33 PM PT In his notorious ESPN comments last Sunday night, Rush Limbaugh said he never thought the Philadelphia Eagles' Donovan McNabb was "that good of a quarterback." If Limbaugh were a more astute analyst, he would have been even harsher and said, "Donovan McNabb is barely a mediocre quarterback." But other than that, Limbaugh pretty much spoke the truth. Limbaugh lost his job for saying in public what many football fans and analysts have been saying privately for the past couple of seasons. Let's review: McNabb, he said, is "overrated ... what we have here is a little social concern in the NFL. The media has been very desirous that a black quarterback can do well—black coaches and black quarterbacks doing well." "There's a little hope invested in McNabb, and he got a lot of credit for the performance of his team that he didn't deserve. The defense carried this team." Let's take the football stuff first. For the past four seasons, the Philadelphia Eagles have had one of the best defenses in the National Football League and have failed to make it to the Super Bowl primarily because of an ineffective offense—an offense run by Donovan McNabb. McNabb was a great college quarterback, in my estimation one of the best of the '90s while at Syracuse. (For the record, I helped persuade ESPN Magazine, then called ESPN Total Sports, to put him on the cover of the 1998 college-football preview issue.) He is one of the most talented athletes in the NFL, but that talent has not translated into greatness as a pro quarterback. McNabb has started for the Eagles since the 2000 season. In that time, the Eagles offense has never ranked higher than 10th in the league in yards gained. In fact, their 10th-place rank in 2002 was easily their best; in their two previous seasons, they were 17th in a 32-team league. They rank 31st so far in 2003. In contrast, the Eagles defense in those four seasons has never ranked lower than 10th in yards allowed. In 2001, they were seventh; in 2002 they were fourth; this year they're fifth. It shouldn't take a football Einstein to see that the Eagles' strength over the past few seasons has been on defense, and Limbaugh is no football Einstein, which is probably why he spotted it. The news that the Eagles defense has "carried" them over this period should be neither surprising nor controversial to anyone with access to simple NFL statistics—or for that matter, with access to a television. Yet, McNabb has received an overwhelming share of media attention and thus the credit. Now why is this? Let's look at a quarterback with similar numbers who also plays for a team with a great defense. I don't know anyone who would call Brad Johnson one of the best quarterbacks in pro football—which is how McNabb is often referred to. In fact, I don't know anyone who would call Brad Johnson, on the evidence of his 10-year NFL career, much more than mediocre. Yet, Johnson's NFL career passer rating, as of last Sunday, is 7.3 points higher than McNabb's (84.8 to 77.5), he has completed his passes at a higher rate (61.8 percent to 56.4 percent), and has averaged significantly more yards per pass (6.84 to 5.91). McNabb excels in just one area, running, where he has gained 2,040 yards and scored 14 touchdowns to Johnson's 467 and seven. But McNabb has also been sacked more frequently than Johnson—more than once, on average, per game, which negates much of the rushing advantage. In other words, in just about every way, Brad Johnson has been a more effective quarterback than McNabb and over a longer period. And even if you say the stats don't matter and that a quarterback's job is to win games, Johnson comes out ahead. Johnson has something McNabb doesn't, a Super Bowl ring, which he went on to win after his Bucs trounced McNabb's Eagles in last year's NFC championship game by a score of 27-10. The Bucs and Eagles were regarded by everyone as having the two best defenses in the NFL last year. When they played in the championship game, the difference was that the Bucs defense completely bottled up McNabb while the Eagles defense couldn't stop Johnson. In terms of performance, many NFL quarterbacks should be ranked ahead of McNabb. But McNabb has represented something special to all of us since he started his first game in the NFL, and we all know what that is. Limbaugh is being excoriated for making race an issue in the NFL. This is hypocrisy. I don't know of a football writer who didn't regard the dearth of black NFL quarterbacks as one of the most important issues in the late '80s and early '90s. (The topic really caught fire after 1988, when Doug Williams of the Washington Redskins became the first black quarterback to win a Super Bowl.) So far, no black quarterback has been able to dominate a league in which the majority of the players are black. To pretend that many of us didn't want McNabb to be the best quarterback in the NFL because he's black is absurd. To say that we shouldn't root for a quarterback to win because he's black is every bit as nonsensical as to say that we shouldn't have rooted for Jackie Robinson to succeed because he was black. (Please, I don't need to be reminded that McNabb's situation is not so difficult or important as Robinson's—I'm talking about a principle.) Consequently, it is equally absurd to say that the sports media haven't overrated Donovan McNabb because he's black. I'm sorry to have to say it; he is the quarterback for a team I root for. Instead of calling him overrated, I wish I could be admiring his Super Bowl rings. But the truth is that I and a great many other sportswriters have chosen for the past few years to see McNabb as a better player than he has been because we want him to be. Rush Limbaugh didn't say Donovan McNabb was a bad quarterback because he is black. He said that the media have overrated McNabb because he is black, and Limbaugh is right. He didn't say anything that he shouldn't have said, and in fact he said things that other commentators should have been saying for some time now. I should have said them myself. I mean, if they didn't hire Rush Limbaugh to say things like this, what they did they hire him for? To talk about the prevent defense?

Very interesting... especially the comparison to Johnson. And McNabb IS considered by a majority of the sports media to be a much better QB than Johnson. That is a fact.

	04-10-2003 05:08									#90
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Tingkai -

quote: The race card is introducting race into something where racism did not exist.

Were sports writers who may have been hyping McNabb introducing race into their analysis? You've got it backwards, Rush didn't introduce race into it, the sports media did and he merely commented on that.

Read Imran's last post!!! He just proved to me that McNabb has been hyped because just from the little media I watch I had the impression McNabb was one of the top 5-6 QB's in the league (as I've stated in this thread) and Imran, or the author of that Slate article, just blew my mind! I had no idea McNabb's numbers were so underwhelming. My God, I consider Brad Johnson to be so-so at best and even he has better stats than McNabb.

As for Warren Moon, he was a very good QB, but no where near the best - and that was the expectation for NcNabb - to be near the best if not the best. Except for kicker, blacks have reached the pinnacle at every position...but not at QB... Blacks aren't hyped at other positions because there's no need. You can't tell me this hyping doesn't happen, when Tiger Woods hit the tour I was pulling for him to kick butt and I have no doubt this happens when a solid black prospect at QB enters the league too...it's the same principle.