02-10-2003 05:40									#1
	Help With Development...2194 Gigamap Version 2 Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I am beginning work on Version 2 of my 2194 Days Of War Gigamap Version. It is a complete rework and a complete rebuilding of the previous scenario. I want to change everything that needs to be changed, but I don't know everything that needs to be changed. Please let me know whatever you think needs to be changed as far as Countries, Cities, Technologies, and especially Units. Please post them here, thanks a lot.

Pap

	02-10-2003 11:56									#2
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I would galdly assist, Comrade!

I think the shape of the North African coast line should be remodeled first. Well, I would also favor to include some terrain or something like this to avoid a total conquest of China by Japan.

It would also be funny to make in my opinion it more fun to do this (if possible): As the only difference between grassland and plains is the food production you could replace the plains in the Northern Hemisphere with grassland to get one terrain free. With that free terrain you could be able to create some 'buffer' terrain and the Russian winter could have 'white' terrains.

I oppose some of the units, like the PzKw VI King Tiger as this tank has not reached the front in too large numbers. I would prefer to see different PzKw IV versions as least half of the total German tank production was PzKw IVs.

Maybe leave the Neutrals out, replace them with the Barbs and give them a such powerful defence unit to make sure that no human player would attack those cities and include Italy - to impede Germany a bit which is - in my humble opinion - a VERY strong country.

So much for now, later more. Regards, jim.

	02-10-2003 13:43									#3
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I agree with leaving the neutrals out.. but Italy the best civ that can replace them? I can't come up with another civ now, so it seems to be the best. Don't forget their colonies (Libya, Abessinia, Eritrea) in Africa though. It would be more itneresting to see Italy and Germany cooperate in a PBEM (especially in North Africa).

	02-10-2003 15:34									#4
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That was the intention behind my suggestion.

	03-10-2003 03:11									#5
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What if the new scenario started with the invasion of Poland in 39, and you included the French instead of the Neutrals?

Alternatively, the Italians could be grouped with Germany's other allies (Hungary, Romania & Bulgaria) that used lots of Italian equipment anyway.

	03-10-2003 03:41									#6
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Remember that Italy also holds Yugoslavia and Greece when the scenario starts in Dec '41.

	03-10-2003 04:05									#7
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Not really. All the major/ strategic cities in 1941 Greece were under German control (Athens, Salonica, Western Crete & the border with Turkey).
Thats effectively everything that shows in Civ2

The Italians got the rest of the country -in theory- & the Bulgars got Thrace.

In practice, the mountainous mainland interior got firmly under the control of various resistance groups, but I am not going to get into that.

The same goes for Yugoslavia, where the Germans installed a puppet state in Croatia, and Tito's partizans established themselves in the interior.

The Germans got what was worth anything, the Italians got their leftovers. And where the basic supply source for the resistance, against their will or not.

	03-10-2003 05:32									#8
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Hey guys, thanks for all the help so far!

This scenario is going to start in December of 1941, but I am also planning on one starting in 1939 after this one is complete. The only problem I see with having Italy as a civilization is that they only have 3 or 4 cities. there just isn't enough room to have more cities for them. Can they really survive with 3 or 4 cities?? Let me know what you think.

Pap

	03-10-2003 15:55									#9
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Here are my suggestions for Italy.

Following cities should belong to Italy:
* ROME
* Tranto
* Milan
* Tripoli
* Benghazi
* Addis Adaba (Which i dunno why, is british in your scen)
*Tunis (I'm almost sure the Italians occupied the city)

You could also give them:
* Budapest
* Bucharest
* Odessa (Occupied by Romania according to a map I have)
and rename them "Germans allies" or "Third Reich allies" or something.

Following airbases should also belong to them:
* 112,60 Italy
* 117,53 Albania
* 108,56 Sardinia

--

If they have a good teamwork with Germany (which they are supposed to), and have all these cities/airports they can manage to survive.

You can also make them a city in Eritrea and some british cities in the are to make a conflict there.

edit:
You should reshape the Baltic, Finland are far to small and Riga and Tallin are far too much to the north.

Last edited by Arthedain on 03-10-2003 at 16:05

	03-10-2003 16:06									#10
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It could look a little more like this: (Just a suggestion though)

Attachment: screen.gif
This has been downloaded 140 time(s).

	03-10-2003 17:12									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Arthedain * Addis Adaba (Which i dunno why, is british in your scen)

The 'British' [read: Indian troops under British command] captured the city in either late 1940 or early 1941. All of East Africa was long gone to Italy by the time of Pearl Harbour. Nemo goofed by giving the city to the Axis.

	03-10-2003 17:26									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Case The 'British' [read: Indian troops under British command] captured the city in either late 1940 or early 1941. All of East Africa was long gone to Italy by the time of Pearl Harbour. Nemo goofed by giving the city to the Axis.

Thanks for the info Case. Then just keep the city that way there then

	04-10-2003 07:26									#13
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Considering how very very hard it is to find committed PBEM'ers these days, I'd recommend against a Minor Allies civ.

Anyway, I can only think of a few minor changes.

- Why are some bunker units fortified and some not?

- Lose the Fairey Swordfish in Minsk of course.

- You have to do more to prevent an Axis invasion of Britain in the second turn. Sure, most of the time this is due to incompetence on the British players' part, but it was still too easy for sas and I. Something as simple as removing one of London's 2 bunkers and putting one in a Channel port or two would be more than enough.

- More offensive units available to the Soviets at the start.

- Slightly weaker industry for Germany.

- An industrial square by Delhi.

	06-10-2003 11:45									#14
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But please dont weak Ruhr Valleys industry again!
I always hated all units beeing able to attack aircrafts. Against AI you can forget playing this in every other case superb scen. And I know about some of your house rules but I like to stack my units with fighters (NOT with Bombers)- as I think it is a realistic air defense simulation.

And PLEASE:
I see you love tanks and theres nothing to say against but you have a hundreds of them and NOT EVEN A SINGLE "WEHRMACHT" UNIT! (You said there wasn´t enough slots- but whats more important? The 20th differnt tank or the one and only individual national Infantry?

Yes I think you perhaps have some tanks too much. When I played I just always builded one kind of- the best! Where do I need the others for (as there aren´t much cheaper I guess).

But please dont understand me wrongly- overall I really think your sceneario superb!

	06-10-2003 23:25									#15
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What does everyone think about putting Italy as a country in the scenario?

I aa just worried that they will be killed off very quickly and the allied players will have too much of an advantage. While you can work together as a team in a PBEM you cannot have other player's units in your cities, so it would be hard to accurately recreate how they worked together.

Don't worry Cifer, the Ruhr cities are going to be very important cities.

I don't know what I am going to do about units attacking air units. I think I am going to release a single player version and a PBEM version so they will be different.

I think there are too many tanks also. I tried to get 1 of each type for each country so they became a little too much the focal point of the scenario. I am planning on changing them into national infantry and getting rid of many of the tanks.

	07-10-2003 01:19									#16
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I would band Italy in with the 3rd Reich...

I would strongly recommend making Australia or even Canada a civ in their own right.

Both made huge contributions in WW2...

And no-one has done Canada as a civ in a WW2 scen...

	07-10-2003 03:34									#17
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It will be as much hard for Canada. If they decide to send troops to Europe they can't land in britain cause then they'll occupy their squares etc. You will have the same problem with all the countries but I would gone for Italy and maybe Canada.

	07-10-2003 04:00									#18
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Of course you can have allied troops in your cities in civ: use sleeper units. If you put a sleeping German unit in Italian cities, you can move german units in them/through them. If you put American sleepers in UK cities, you can use British cities during the US turn and so on...
If the last foreign unit in the city is killed, you can't replace it, but as long as there is at least one you can, say, pile US troops in any UK city.
Hope this helps.

In the current version, the Axis is too strong (because of the number of cities, superior units/production/numbers & strategic position- they have all their apples in one basket), and the British too weak (they are overextended).

If you include Italy & Minor alies (as in ZWK) you remedy that. If you take Canada/Australia from the Commonwealth the British will be beaten even sooner. Where's the fun in that.
As for Canada/Australia, yes they would be more viable, but during the war they operated as commonwealth troops, not alone.

Last edited by tanelorn on 07-10-2003 at 04:13

	07-10-2003 14:38									#19
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So if you put German troops in Italy (at least in North Africa), can you disband them as the italian player if you break up the alliance? I think that this is a very good idea Tanelorn, and you're right about don't making the British too weak.

	10-10-2003 02:03									#20
	Put an end to popups!

Sure you can. You can activate them and withdraw them as the German player by placing the cursor box over the city and hitting ctrl A. So that you can sneak attack the Italians, as in 1943, if you suspect they get any funny ideas

	10-10-2003 04:30									#21
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I am for Italy, too! So There also would be more perspectives for Germany- e.g. not supporting Italy anymore and vasting Power in North Africa instead of pushing into the east.

More free space for decisions- more fun!
I would include a "Third Reichs Allies" Civ!

	11-10-2003 12:52									#22
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Hi,

if you are looking for a balanced and correct world map, juste take a view on this map. I created it afew months ago.

Attachment: testgiga.zip
This has been downloaded 15 time(s).

	11-10-2003 15:27									#23
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I second the Italy proposal as it would be more difficult for Germany to advance in Northern Africa. I have played in both PBEMs so far (one as the German, one as the British player) and in both games Egypt was captured by the Germans. Also reinforcing would be harder for the Axis.

	11-10-2003 17:39									#24
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quote: Originally posted by MeckPomm Hi, if you are looking for a balanced and correct world map, juste take a view on this map. I created it afew months ago.

Sorry but yours is the one from Imperialism- which is extremely distorted! The map Pap uses is the best I have ever seen- the most realistic one.
It definitely is NOT balanced or correct- in this map Europe is given more space than it has in reality.
Why do you propose a in every case inferior map to the original one???

	11-10-2003 18:11									#25
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Hallo,

da du aus Detmold kommst, glaube ich das du es verstehen wirst, wenn ich jetzt auf Deutsch schreibe.

1. Diese Karte ist nicht irgendwie geklaut oder verändert von einer bereits bestehenden Karte. Deswegen meine ich, dass es unfähr ist, zumal ich an dieser Karte zwei Wochen gearbeitet habe, zu behaupt, dass diese Karte nicht von mir erstellt wurde.

2. Ich habe zuerst mit Mapedit eine leere Gigamap erstellt. Dann im Civ2-Karteneditor das Gradnetz mittels Eisterrain eingezeichnet und dann alle Umrisse nach original Gradnetzkoordinaten eingezeichnet. Das gleiche gilt für Gebirgszüge und Flüsse. Deswegen kann ich behaupten, dass diese Weltkarte so originalgetreu wie möglich umgesetzt wurde.

3. War das bloß ein Vorschlag. Ich will hier niemanden meine Karte aufzwingen.

So, ich hoffe, dass ist jetzt klargestellt. Sollte nicht böse gemeint sein. Ich finde es halt nur schade, wenn man meine Karte als stark abgewandelte Version der Imperialismus-Weltkarte sieht.

	11-10-2003 20:51									#26
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Hmm... na wenn das so ist, will ich mich höflichst entschuldigen!
Sie sieht der Imp Karte nur extremst ähnlich- und auf dieser und der Imp Karte wird man das Gefühl nicht los, dass Afrika viel zu schmal daherkommt. Ebenso Südamerika.
Wie gesagt, ich halte Paps Map für die realistischste Karte, die ich bis jetzt gesehen habe.
Vielleicht gibt es bei einer exakten Gradnetzübereisntimmung zwischen Atlas und Mapedit ein "Verziehen" des Gesamtwerkes- anders kann ich mir das nicht erklären.
Also, ich sage noch einmal Entschuldigung und wünsche dir alles Gute hier!

	15-10-2003 03:08									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Darius871 Considering how very very hard it is to find committed PBEM'ers these days, I'd recommend against a Minor Allies civ. Anyway, I can only think of a few minor changes. - Why are some bunker units fortified and some not? - Lose the Fairey Swordfish in Minsk of course. - You have to do more to prevent an Axis invasion of Britain in the second turn. Sure, most of the time this is due to incompetence on the British players' part, but it was still too easy for sas and I. Something as simple as removing one of London's 2 bunkers and putting one in a Channel port or two would be more than enough. - More offensive units available to the Soviets at the start. - Slightly weaker industry for Germany. - An industrial square by Delhi.

Dito everything Darius says. It is still TOO EASY to invade the UK. Especially early in the game before the Brits can "do something about it."

Where the he!! you been BTW, we missed you! You dumb pollock!

	15-10-2003 04:29									#28
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MeckPomm and Cifer Almasy...could you post in English, please? There is a thing called private message (PM), if you wanna talk in German

About the scen: I suggest several map changes, specially in the Pacific Ocean. It's too small, and the isles are wrong placed (specially Midway and Hawaii)

And if it's going to be designed for PBEMs, I would allow diplomacy between players

	16-10-2003 12:32									#29
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Well, then I try to say it in English, too.

The map is my own creation, It's not a copy or anything else of something that has already existed.

Sorry, but nothing is too small and nothing is wrong placed. For this map I used the radiation net (Gradnetz?), so every little river and every little island and every small coastline is as real as possible.

	19-10-2003 18:03									#30
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Thanks for all of the ideas guys, this is great stuff!

My next question is probably the most important because it has to do with gameplay. In all of the PBEM's that have been played so far, regardless of who has won the PBEM's, they were won very quickly. The main reason this has happened is because advances are easy to make in the scenario. Conquests are easy to come by.

In order to slow the game down, do you think I should do which of the following, or something completely different altogether...

1) - Keep a similar number of units, but increase the number of defensive units

2) - Keep a similar number of untis, but lower the attacking values, or raise the defensive values of units

3) - Lower the number of units altogether in the scenario

I'm actually leaning the furthest from number 3 right now just because I think that the sheer number of units is perfect for the scale of the scenario. Please let me know what you all think.

Pap