03-10-2003 08:37									#31
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quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel Intriguing. Using a trick to get two attacks out of a unit in one game turn. I'm not sure I'm interested in this game anymore.

Bye - The "Leave" link is right next to your team forums name at the top of this page.

	03-10-2003 09:02									#32
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Instead of this thread and game deteriorating into futher bouts of immaturity, perhaps we could use this opportunity as the foundation for a set of codified Poly rules for these games. When PTW came out we had no idea what exploitable tricks we would find. Some of course would be left over from Civ3, some would be new. Unfortunately it was not possible to see all of the (many) flaws in PTW at the outset of this game, which has led to much strife. So I would propose that we assemble a list of tricks that would be out of bounds for further Demo Games, and perhaps even regular PBEM's.

Some questionable tactics have been used by GS, some have been avoided. I'm not sure what is really bad or not, we have argued several times in our own forum about such things.

A potential list of things that I've noticed. I will try to include things that I don't think are wrong as well that some might have questions with. If you like this idea, feel free to add on. If you think this is a bad idea, then please criticize. I'm aware that it is probably too late for this game, but might save similar hard feelings in the future. Also I'm aware that in a month much of this will be moot, due to the arrival of Conquests

1. Gifting of cities to move units across the map
2. Gifting of cities for defensive purposes (IE gifting the frontlines)
3. The fortify ship trick
4. The trading of cats and other artillery to an ally via temporary war
5. The use of such traded cats for two attacks in one turn
6. The fortify-all command when some units don't have moves left (though I think this doesn't actually fortify them)
7. The ability to mass upgrade troops even when their moves are finished.
8. Switching builds at the beginning of a turn to rush units more quickly or build new types of weapons. (I can clarify if need be)
9. Galley Chaining
10. Leader farming with an ally
11. Trading maps to reveal new barb huts (might be mistaken on that one)
12. And finally, it goes without saying, reloading

I'm sure there are other tricks that I'm forgetting, or don't know about. And probably some of the above are my mistaken interpretations of what I have heard.


This game has seen too many flame threads, IMHO. I think that this time we can be constructive and build for the future of this game and others.

Thanks.

	03-10-2003 09:12									#33
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I feel if a list of rules could be agreed upon it would make things better for all teams. I've noticed a lot of "gee, I wonder what they're doing" talk on more than one occasion, and that is starting to hurt the spirit of the game.

	03-10-2003 09:27									#34
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quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel Instead of this thread and game deteriorating into futher bouts of immaturity, perhaps we could use this opportunity as the foundation for a set of codified Poly rules for these games. When PTW came out we had no idea what exploitable tricks we would find. Some of course would be left over from Civ3, some would be new. Unfortunately it was not possible to see all of the (many) flaws in PTW at the outset of this game, which has led to much strife. So I would propose that we assemble a list of tricks that would be out of bounds for further Demo Games, and perhaps even regular PBEM's.

I totally agree with this and will coment individually:

quote: 1. Gifting of cities to move units across the map

Debatable. It is not a game winning tactic in itself. I do find it "sneaky" but perhaps not borderline cheating. Many might disagree.

quote: 2. Gifting of cities for defensive purposes (IE gifting the frontlines)

Allowable. This has happened in real life. Just look at the Arab union formed for the 1967 war (I think it was that war)

quote: 3. The fortify ship trick

Cheating. This is a blatant exploit of a known game bug. I am totally against this.

quote: 4. The trading of cats and other artillery to an ally via temporary war

AllowableSince there is no way to allow unit trades, I don't see why this is necessarily bad. Armies trade weapons after all.

quote: 5. The use of such traded cats for two attacks in one turn

Debatable. Units are supposed to attack once, this might be a little too far.

quote: 6. The fortify-all command when some units don't have moves left (though I think this doesn't actually fortify them)

Allowable. The fortify-all command is there, I don't see why this is wrong.

quote: 7. The ability to mass upgrade troops even when their moves are finished.

Allowable. Why is this bad?

quote: 8. Switching builds at the beginning of a turn to rush units more quickly or build new types of weapons. (I can clarify if need be)

Debatable. We don't know if this was intended or not by the designers. I so, then I see no problem with it.

quote: 9. Galley Chaining

Allowable. This ain't a cheat

quote: 10. Leader farming with an ally

Cheating. TOTALLY COMPLETELY ABSOLUTELY AGAINST THIS. THIS IS A GAME-WINNING EXPLOIT THAT SHOULD NOT EVEN BE CONSIDERED BY ANY RESPECTABLE PLAYER IN A DEMO GAME.

quote: 11. Trading maps to reveal new barb huts (might be mistaken on that one)

??

quote: 12. And finally, it goes without saying, reloading

Cheating. A definite no-no. I don't think this has been considered by any team here.


Finally, with respect to the title of this thread, I am strongly against a team looking at the save of another no matter how good allies they are..

Send screenshots, and maps, and whatever. No need to trade the save.

	03-10-2003 09:29									#35
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Here we go again....


-
I wasn't around at the time the GS teleporting happened and have become more and more inactive as the game progresses so my input isn't really of high value, but

1. I did think the teleporting was a bit iffy to put it mildly ( note that I did not speak up back then, being inactive and all )
2. the catapult exploit is as far as I am concerned a big nono.
One is either at war or isn't IMVHO.

Strange that most of these things don't happen in solo PBEM's. I guess either people are having higher standards when playing alone or is it mob mentality that sparks this?

Perhaps we should call it quits with this game and call it a draw or something...

Hey, it has been fun, really, not being sarcastic here

-One for Sleepy's list:
Same tile production (involves loads of MM but can be worth it )

	03-10-2003 09:32									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Trip I feel if a list of rules could be agreed upon it would make things better for all teams. I've noticed a lot of "gee, I wonder what they're doing" talk on more than one occasion, and that is starting to hurt the spirit of the game.

Trip,

The biggest and most hurtful exploit so far, has been GS doing the unit warp.

Doing it, they were able ship far more units to RP's defense than should of been available to them.

Because of this, GoW & ND were severly hamstrung in their RP war. It is quite possible, that RP could of been 100% destroyed, but we are now bogged down in a long term war.

If you/we want to start inserting rules in this game now, then how do you propose ND & GoW be compensated for GS use of exploits ?


It is simply a bad joke that GS have not made any mention any exploits that they have used until now, when they all of a sudden they think that someone else got an unfair advantage against them.

	03-10-2003 09:41									#37
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I was thinking of why the save thing is an even worse idea:

what is so fun about keeping on playing with this game if you are surrendering your chance to play to another team, no matter how good allies they are? Ultimately we're here to play, may we be winning or may we be losing. Giving the save to another team to me suggests an attitude of "we don't care anymore".

Regarless of the situation facing RP, I would think that most of their team members are anxious to keep on playing and fighting, which is why this poll surprises me even more.

War is a lengthy and complex thing. If we decide to do these things for "time reasons" then we are avoiding what is best about civ: the complexity and challange of warfare, especially of this magnitude: a magniture never before witnessed in a demo game. Why sacrifice this turning point and surrender to mediocrity just to get the save a few hours sooner?

	03-10-2003 09:44									#38
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HE, if you were to (re)-read Theseus' post you would see that, that is the first things he mentiones.

	03-10-2003 09:45									#39
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I think the x2 cats is a great massaging of game mechanics. If I had any gripe against something like that it would be that it favors certain teams in the game rotation. If your partner follows you directly it eliminates the amount of risk involved or greatly increases the area where such tricks can be used safely. There is the tradeoff of it being more difficult to get the cats back around to the first team though, so it's not a big deal IMO.

	03-10-2003 09:46									#40
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Much of this discussion has happened before when I tried to put some rules in place for the PTWDG2...

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=93499

	03-10-2003 09:46									#41
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quote: 5. The use of such traded cats for two attacks in one turn Debatable. Units are supposed to attack once, this might be a little too far.

I'm sure that if you were able to trade units, that trading would take up all the movement points of the units rendering it useless for the remainder of the turn.

	03-10-2003 09:46									#42
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quote: Originally posted by alva I wasn't around at the time the GS teleporting happened and have become more and more inactive as the game progresses so my input isn't really of high value, but

indeed

quote: Originally posted by alva -One for Sleepy's list: Same tile production (involves loads of MM but can be worth it )

I'm not sure what you're referring to, can you explain it? You know the cheats better than me alva

	03-10-2003 09:50									#43
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quote: Originally posted by ZargonX Much of this discussion has happened before when I tried to put some rules in place for the PTWDG2... http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=93499

Indeed very wise ZargonX. I hadn't noticed that thread, as I am not participating in that game, but its a very good thread. I think its very important for this community to come up with some rules, it would alleviate some hard feelings I think.

	03-10-2003 09:51									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson I think the x2 cats is a great massaging of game mechanics. If I had any gripe against something like that it would be that it favors certain teams in the game rotation. If your partner follows you directly it eliminates the amount of risk involved or greatly increases the area where such tricks can be used safely. There is the tradeoff of it being more difficult to get the cats back around to the first team though, so it's not a big deal IMO.

Actually it would be impossible for the 2nd civ to give them back to the first civ in the following turn because they would have to leave them unprotected (or have to sacrifice a unit).

That means there's no real easy way of doing this continously (i.e. a prolonged siege).

Like Aeson, I think this is a debatable strategy, I am not really decided on whether to consider it cheating or not.

	03-10-2003 09:51									#45
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quote: Originally posted by alva HE, if you were to (re)-read Theseus' post you would see that, that is the first things he mentiones.

Sorry Alva .. What is the "that" you are talking about.

	03-10-2003 09:54									#46
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It's quite hard to do and ideally you would need your capital and some more cities having build 1 turn units ( basically you get into the turn cycle and 'reuse' tiles with high production.
- City A uses and shares a shielded grassland
- City A builds warrior
- enter build que
- click in the city screen to next city
- Let city B use the same tile that city A used to finish the warrior

Like I said, it takes a lot of work, but when done correctly it can yield a decent amount of shields ( especially if without this city B would only be producing 9 shields max and thus wasting a lot)

	03-10-2003 09:55									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Hot_Enamel Trip, The biggest and most hurtful exploit so far, has been GS doing the unit warp. Doing it, they were able ship far more units to RP's defense than should of been available to them. Because of this, GoW & ND were severly hamstrung in their RP war. It is quite possible, that RP could of been 100% destroyed, but we are now bogged down in a long term war. If you/we want to start inserting rules in this game now, then how do you propose ND & GoW be compensated for GS use of exploits ? It is simply a bad joke that GS have not made any mention any exploits that they have used until now, when they all of a sudden they think that someone else got an unfair advantage against them.

And how do you know the exact details of what happened and how that's affected the game?

Oh wait, right, you don't, you're just assuming.

	03-10-2003 09:55									#48
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quote: Originally posted by alva It's quite hard to do and ideally you would need your capital and some more cities having build 1 turn units ( basically you get into the turn cycle and 'reuse' tiles with high production. - City A uses and shares a shielded grassland - City A builds warrior - enter build que - click in the city screen to next city - Let city B use the same tile that city A used to finish the warrior Like I said, it takes a lot of work, but when done correctly it can yield a decent amount of shields ( especially if without this city B would only be producing 9 shields max and thus wasting a lot)

Jesus Alva, you are a diabolical bastard. And one that has a lot of time to play these things. Thanks for the info.

	03-10-2003 09:56									#49
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quote: Sorry Alva .. What is the "that" you are talking about.

quote: posted by Theseus * Some of the PTWDG teams have already taken advantage of the technical opportunites of PTW MP... I hope my teammates won't kill me, but GS has done so, to a limited extent.

	03-10-2003 09:58									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen I was thinking of why the save thing is an even worse idea: what is so fun about keeping on playing with this game if you are surrendering your chance to play to another team, no matter how good allies they are? Ultimately we're here to play, may we be winning or may we be losing. Giving the save to another team to me suggests an attitude of "we don't care anymore". Regarless of the situation facing RP, I would think that most of their team members are anxious to keep on playing and fighting, which is why this poll surprises me even more.

You really miss my point if this is what you think.

It' not that I want any team to play our save. It is simply to help coordinate matters of war in a matter that is streamlined.

I love getting the save and taking a look at it. It's because we have allies and are trying to act in 100% concert with GS in this war that this suggestion was made.

I again state that I have not heard any valid reasons to not allow another team have access to a teams save. Tell me, besides cheating factors, what could be shared in passing the save along to another team that can not be shared through the forums?

	03-10-2003 10:00									#51
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quote: Jesus Alva, you are a diabolical bastard. And one that has a lot of time to play these things. Thanks for the info.

Just to make sure (don't know if this exploit was known, I sort of mentioned it once in the GS forum but never clarified it), I DON't use it and don't it should be used, not even in SP

Then again, I never short-rush in SP either ( come to think of it, I don't use it in PBEM either)

	03-10-2003 10:01									#52
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Hot Enamel-

are you referring to all RP gifting of cities to GS-ie Toledo etc or just the Inchon transfer?

And could you provide the GoW estimate of Units moved (by type and number)

I trust this is a serious complaint and not just a backhanded way of determining the garrison of Pamplona.

	03-10-2003 10:03									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Trip And how do you know the exact details of what happened and how that's affected the game? Oh wait, right, you don't, you're just assuming.

Actually, the credit goes to Master Zen who figured it out, and posted it in our forum.


If it's not true like you are suggesting, perhaps you or any GS member would like to clarify exactly how many extra units they were able to warp to their capital and get to RP territory in double quick time.

It's old new now, so I doubt releasing unit numbers would make any difference.

	03-10-2003 10:05									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Hot_Enamel Actually, the credit goes to Master Zen who figured it out, and posted it in our forum. If it's not true like you are suggesting, perhaps you or any GS member would like to clarify exactly how many extra units they were able to warp to their capital and get to RP territory in double quick time.

Sometimes things you "figure out" can be either wrong or different from assumed.

quote: It's old new now, so I doubt releasing unit numbers would make any difference.

Well, there's no rules regarding this sort of thing, so I guess it's up to them to disclose what happened...

	03-10-2003 10:07									#55
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HE,

If I read your question correctly (and it sounds like Trip is reading it the same way), 0 is the answer.

	03-10-2003 10:08									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Hot_Enamel If it's not true like you are suggesting, perhaps you or any GS member would like to clarify exactly how many extra units they were able to warp to their capital and get to RP territory in double quick time.

Again, are you referring to all giftings or just Inchon? Quite a difference, as I believe the toledo units could have moved to Pamplona easily in time to meet ND. Obviously units from Inchon could not.

quote: Originally posted by Hot_Enamel It's old new now, so I doubt releasing unit numbers would make any difference.

Um, where do you think all those units have gone? RP has basically no land other than Pamplona, so unless you think they have a hidden garrison someplace, they're all in there. So why should we tell you that?

again, please be explicit and we can work with you.

	03-10-2003 10:13									#57
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quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel Hot Enamel- are you referring to all RP gifting of cities to GS-ie Toledo etc or just the Inchon transfer? And could you provide the GoW estimate of Units moved (by type and number) I trust this is a serious complaint and not just a backhanded way of determining the garrison of Pamplona.

Just the Inchon transfer.
It is assumed that a large chunk of the GS army was north.
They just finsihed the war with Vox & the only point were anyone could invade GS territory is in the North.

Therefore, it is assumed that a large chumk of GS units got magically transported to their capital.
Then that large chunk of units was able to jump on some galleys and get over to RP pretty quickly.

I have no idea how many you guys got over there.

Perhaps you may want to let me know how many "extra" units you were able to ship over.
And how many units was magically transported to your capital.

Surely this is old news that can be revealed ?

_And I hold my breath, because it looks like I could have totally got the whole thing wrong_

	03-10-2003 10:15									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Hot_Enamel Just the Inchon transfer. It is assumed that a large chunk of the GS army was north. They just finsihed the war with Vox & the only point were anyone could invade GS territory is in the North. Therefore, it is assumed that a large chumk of GS units got magically transported to their capital. Then that large chunk of units was able to jump on some galleys and get over to RP pretty quickly. I have no idea how many you guys got over there. Perhaps you may want to let me know how many "extra" units you were able to ship over. And how many units was magically transported to your capital. Surely this is old news that can be revealed ?

quote: Originally posted by Aeson HE, If I read your question correctly (and it sounds like Trip is reading it the same way), 0 is the answer.

	03-10-2003 10:19									#59
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Laugh with me guys ... not at me.

	03-10-2003 10:19									#60
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree I again state that I have not heard any valid reasons to not allow another team have access to a teams save. Tell me, besides cheating factors, what could be shared in passing the save along to another team that can not be shared through the forums?

Then why would you share it in the first place? You're admitting there's nothing that can't be shared through the forums, and also through other means like screenshots.

A save is the essense of a civ. If you trade it it's like showing another country every possible aspect of your civ's being, everything from military units to seeing a guy taking a crap in Pamplona. That is not real. You don't "share" your country in real life, I see no need to do so in this game.