02-10-2003 19:40									#31
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so you are willing to admit that there are plenty of rightists who engage in the exact same tactics that these leftists you speak of use?

	02-10-2003 19:46									#32
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So basically what you're saying is that there are good people and bad people on both sides and the title of this thread was just a pathetic troll against the left intended to foster animousity and partisan division? Is that what I'm hearing? Okay, good, just wanted to make sure.

	02-10-2003 19:48									#33
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quote: So basically what you're saying is that there are good people and bad people on both sides

What baffles me the most is this strange idea that there are only two sides.

	02-10-2003 19:53									#34
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FOR invading Iraq...or AGAINST invading Iraq...no? I guess you could invade Iraq halfway and then go home, but we tried that with W's father and it didn't work all that well.

	02-10-2003 20:25									#35
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It's limited but there does seem to be some truth in what he says. The media does have a vested interest in making things out to be worse then they are because doom, gloom, and sansationalism all sell papers.

	02-10-2003 20:25									#36
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The right and left both have their cynics but the right is the lesser of two evils by a long shot. If the left had their way France would still be vetoing any attempt to free Iraq and the dictator of Iraq would still be torturing his people. There is a big difference. One side actually did something and the other likes to talk about how much they care about people.

	02-10-2003 20:45									#37
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why is the right the lesser of the two evils?

	02-10-2003 20:48									#38
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Well, I'm glad things seem to be turning out better than expected over there, Lincoln.
Seriously.

I'm just wondering if it was necessary to alienate our allies in the process. Or alienate muslim nations, whose "hearts and minds" we're supposed to be winning. Or clamping down on the rights of americans at home. Or not be fully prepared for the follow up.

Probably a few other things I could mention but you get my drift.

(btw, that leftist organization NPR had already mentioned similar stories to what printed, so it's not like it's new news.)

	02-10-2003 20:48									#39
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Because they don't care about people and just do things?

	02-10-2003 20:50									#40
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Well I have to go for a few hours (I have to fabricate some more good news ) so in the meantime the cynics can prove that all the quotes I posted are lies posted on the official Whitehouse website. If you succeed think of the scandal you can cause in Washington? (This can be a worthy task for someone. You only have to find one comma out of place and voila! instant scandal!)

If you read the page (below) start about half way down because I already posted most of the first half.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/rele...0030929-13.html

	02-10-2003 20:56									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Theben Well, I'm glad things seem to be turning out better than expected over there, Lincoln. Seriously. I'm just wondering if it was necessary to alienate our allies in the process. Or alienate muslim nations, whose "hearts and minds" we're supposed to be winning. Or clamping down on the rights of americans at home. Or not be fully prepared for the follow up. Probably a few other things I could mention but you get my drift. (btw, that leftist organization NPR had already mentioned similar stories to what printed, so it's not like it's new news.)

Well I am happy that you are happy. Your post is refreshing because I really believe that many people really do care that the people are given another chance regardless of their political leaning. My position on the war and alieniating allies is, if I was in prison being tortured I wouldn't care at all who was offended that I was set free.

	02-10-2003 21:16									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln My position on the war and alieniating allies is, if I was in prison being tortured I wouldn't care at all who was offended that I was set free.

Fair enough.

But my point is we need those allies & muslims on our side. Esp. the muslims, since alienating them will result in greater numbers of terrorists. Also now Bush is asking for U.N. support; if he keeps using the same tactics he won't get it, and that ties us down longer and with more money and personnel. From your POV, that alone should be worth attention, as we'll be delayed from helping others.

	02-10-2003 21:25									#43
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Lincoln:

As a pacifist, I can't support the methods used by the United States to topple Saddam, I am pleased to see that things are getting better.

I hope that the US does not give up because of the expense, but that they will see this reconstruction through to the bitter end.

The same goes for Afghanistan.

Would it not have been better to let the people of Iraq rebel against Saddam?

	02-10-2003 21:35									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Tiberius Lincoln, do you want to see how happy actually the arabs are with the US politics in the middle east, including the war in Iraq? Read this

You should know that the opinions of Muslims in general and Iraqis in particular would be very different.

	02-10-2003 21:45									#45
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I would've liked to see a well-thought out plan subject to public scrutiny which protects the liberties and welfare of Iraqis before we actually invaded. That didn't happen, thus the war was not justified even if some Iraqis are better in the short term. We could've done a much better post-war job if our gov't actually was actually responsible and genuniely cared about Iraqis. And the opinion of the people reflect that. Of course the cyncial/delusion right doesn't want to hear that either.

	02-10-2003 22:22									#46
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Lincoln! Lincoln! Lincoln!

Take no prisoners, they're too whiney...

	02-10-2003 22:29									#47
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It's good to know that Rev. Lincoln still supports killing thousands of innocent children and flattening cities. I suggest you get your morals from someone like Jesus and not the Republican Party.

	02-10-2003 22:31									#48
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Like I said before, I know a guy that just came back from Iraq who went to be a translator. He was injured in an ambush there, and came back home to the States to recover.

He had nothing but good and optimistic things to say about what's going on over there.

	02-10-2003 22:38									#49
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Lancer!

Did you see my RCIA thread?

What did you think?

	02-10-2003 22:47									#50
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I don't want to hear this.

Old news, Lincoln, m'boy. 'S'why I don't harp on how bad things are going in Iraq. Cuz I don't know, one way or another. I hear both points of view from people on the ground in Iraq, and the truth is probably, both, neither, and some combination thereof.

	02-10-2003 23:41									#51
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In other news today... Iraqi police were shooting rioters who wanted jobs and claimed the US was giving them out in an unfair manner...

	02-10-2003 23:47									#52
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Selective quoting is not proof. It's pathetic that people with a grasp of logic are derided as 'cynical'.

	03-10-2003 03:04									#53
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i hate to busta cap on anyone's balloon, but you do realise that Saddam Hussein is still alive and free don't you? So long as he is alive and free it is going to be very difficult, if not impossible, for the US to disengage from Iraq, since there will remain a chance that he could wrestle his way back to power.

	03-10-2003 03:07									#54
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I don't have that feel good feeling about Iraq anymore. Lincoln, please come back and make all the bad news go away.

	03-10-2003 03:50									#55
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quote: Originally posted by monkspider It's good to know that Rev. Lincoln still supports killing thousands of innocent children and flattening cities. I suggest you get your morals from someone like Jesus and not the Republican Party.

It's good to know that you could care less if the Iraqi people are slaughtered and tortured until kingdom come as long as you can pretend that you care for the poor and afflicted people of the world. Even Jesus cleared his temple of the scum who used their religion to ignore the poor and suffering in order to give high-sounding speeches about how much they really cared. I don't buy the whiney excuses of the left while real people are being tortured. Maybe visualising world peace and bending over to France will save them.

	03-10-2003 03:57									#56
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I don't want to hear this. Old news, Lincoln, m'boy. 'S'why I don't harp on how bad things are going in Iraq. Cuz I don't know, one way or another. I hear both points of view from people on the ground in Iraq, and the truth is probably, both, neither, and some combination thereof.

Well there might still be hope for you Che.

	03-10-2003 04:13									#57
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0/10.
It's just too blatant, Lincoln. Good trolls veil their attacks against the opponent, not "cynical left" and "the right is the lesser of two evils".
Try again, and you may get a higher score.

	03-10-2003 04:14									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Theben Fair enough. But my point is we need those allies & muslims on our side. Esp. the muslims, since alienating them will result in greater numbers of terrorists. Also now Bush is asking for U.N. support; if he keeps using the same tactics he won't get it, and that ties us down longer and with more money and personnel. From your POV, that alone should be worth attention, as we'll be delayed from helping others.

France (and probably Germany) would never allow an invasion of Iraq, and France said as much before the UN. If the US and Britain had aquiesed to that threat of veto the people of Iraq would still be without hope. But you are right in that it is better to do what is necessary without making enemies if possible. France is as much to blame as Bush is if he was too hasty. France left no out so Blair and Bush ignored her. History will prove who was right.

	03-10-2003 11:18									#59
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So the iraqi people were freed. Great!

Now, tell me Lincoln, do you honestly believe that Saddam was the only dictator on Earth? No? Then, in the name of the opressed people of this world, I'm asking you: who's next?

	03-10-2003 12:57									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln Yeah right. All the people above are lying.

Did I say that they where lying?

These people are just expressing their opinion. It doesn't tell much about further development.