03-10-2003 13:36									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln France (and probably Germany) would never allow an invasion of Iraq, and France said as much before the UN. If the US and Britain had aquiesed to that threat of veto the people of Iraq would still be without hope. But you are right in that it is better to do what is necessary without making enemies if possible. France is as much to blame as Bush is if he was too hasty. France left no out so Blair and Bush ignored her. History will prove who was right.

A lot of what France & Germany said came after Bush made it clear that he was going to war with Iraq regardless of what anyone thought. Bad diplomacy on Bush's part, led to bad results with Europe.

I quote I heard by a news reporter sums it up nicely: "This is a man[Bush] who lost a PR contest with Saddam Hussein [emphasis in original], and it's the European's fault?"

	03-10-2003 17:32									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Tiberius So the iraqi people were freed. Great! Now, tell me Lincoln, do you honestly believe that Saddam was the only dictator on Earth? No? Then, in the name of the opressed people of this world, I'm asking you: who's next?

So if we cannot free some we should not free any? Do you object that some are not being tortured now because there are others some place in the world who are still under oppression? Why don't you start a campaign to free someone instead of criticising the work of those who already have brought some hope? Is it because your ideology is more important than actually helping people?

There are quite a few liberals along with conservatives in Iraq now actually trying to help people they claim to care about. Too bad that you are too cynical to see any good news. Maybe Iraq will return to a dictatorship and oppresseion. Then you can gloat with the rest of the cynical left. Sorry for the good news. I didn't mean to spoil your day.

	03-10-2003 17:38									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Theben A lot of what France & Germany said came after Bush made it clear that he was going to war with Iraq regardless of what anyone thought. Bad diplomacy on Bush's part, led to bad results with Europe. I quote I heard by a news reporter sums it up nicely: "This is a man[Bush] who lost a PR contest with Saddam Hussein [emphasis in original], and it's the European's fault?"

I followed the news prior to the war and I don't agree that Bush was any more stubborn than France was. In any case if France had their way people would still be without hope in Iraq to this day. France did nothing but obstruct. Blame who you want but the job was done inspite of France. And you are correct that many were rooting for Saddam. Too bad for them.

	03-10-2003 17:51									#64
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What always annoys me when people brag about how the US and UK have 'liberated' Iraq, is how they conveniently forget the US/UK failure to support the Iraqi peoples own efforts to rid themselves of the dictator twelve years ago after GW1. Then it was not to USUKs liking for the Iraqi people to liberate themselves, so after encouraging an uprising, the USUK stood by and let thousands of Shi'ites and others get slaughtered by Saddams forces... the US and UK were so complicit in this one could easily say they helped Saddam put down the uprising. So Lincoln please don't waste our time by bragging about how now the Iraqi's are finally rid of the dictator, as it was US and British policy that forced him on them and kept him on them for so long in the first place.

You watch, my prediction is that in ten years time Iraq will still be a human rights nightmare presided over by a thruoughly undemocratic (probably Ba'athist) regime.

Did you know that there are no US planse to de-Ba'athize Iraq? (such as the deNazifiction of Germany) that's because ultimately the US did not want regime change in Iraq, it just wanted a new less uppety dictator.

	03-10-2003 17:56									#65
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quote: So if we cannot free some we should not free any? Do you object that some are not being tortured now because there are others some place in the world who are still under oppression? Why don't you start a campaign to free someone instead of criticising the work of those who already have brought some hope? Is it because your ideology is more important than actually helping people? There are quite a few liberals along with conservatives in Iraq now actually trying to help people they claim to care about. Too bad that you are too cynical to see any good news. Maybe Iraq will return to a dictatorship and oppresseion. Then you can gloat with the rest of the cynical left. Sorry for the good news. I didn't mean to spoil your day.

Why didn't you even attempt to answer the question he asked?

	03-10-2003 17:56									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln I followed the news prior to the war and I don't agree that Bush was any more stubborn than France was. In any case if France had their way people would still be without hope in Iraq to this day. France did nothing but obstruct. Blame who you want but the job was done inspite of France. And you are correct that many were rooting for Saddam. Too bad for them.

And what hope do the people of iraq have now ... Oil is running through the pipelines but fresh water and power supply still aren't restored properly ?!?

I bet the local population has got the message ...

	03-10-2003 18:02									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln Why don't you start a campaign to free someone instead of criticising the work of those who already have brought some hope?

Because helping the iraqi people wasn't for a milisecond the goal of this war. Are just so naive, that you can't make the difference between a reason and an excuse?

Why did you "free" Iraq and not some other country that is not in the middle east? Tell me.

quote: Is it because your ideology is more important than actually helping people?

Hahaha! What do you know about my ideology? I suppose I'm a communist now, right? Hahaha.

You still didn't answer me. Who's next? I'd really like to know that, because if suddenly the US finds my country as being opressed, I'd like to begin to pack.

	03-10-2003 18:02									#68
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I guess you didn't read the first posts. Woud you rather have uniterrupted electricity or be free from torture?

	03-10-2003 18:06									#69
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quote: Woud you rather have uniterrupted electricity or be free from torture?

I didn't realise it was an either/or situation.

	03-10-2003 18:07									#70
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The US hit-list goes like this

Iraq
Iran
[a non Saudi] Arabia
Egypt.

	03-10-2003 18:11									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Tiberius Because helping the iraqi people wasn't for a milisecond the goal of this war. Are just so naive, that you can't make the difference between a reason and an excuse? Why did you "free" Iraq and not some other country that is not in the middle east? Tell me. Hahaha! What do you know about my ideology? I suppose I'm a communist now, right? Hahaha.

You are obviously a cynic. Really, some people in Iraq are happy. What ever your ideology is you can keep it because it is void of compassion. Did you even read the ccomments of people in the first post? Can you even see real people who are happy to be free? Or do you only see evil in the motives of people you hate?

	03-10-2003 18:17									#72
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Lincoln dude, you really are a propaganda-monkey, you just lap it aaaaall up and beleive it from the very bottom of your heart. In a way I kind of admire your rosey innosence, and your faith in the good-will of the statesmen who appear on your teevee in the evening to tell you what's happening, why it's happening, and how brave and noble and good your country is. I bet you still beleive in Santa Claus as well

	03-10-2003 18:17									#73
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Did anyone actually read through all that "good news"? I skimmed througha bit of it and it was mostly silly nonsense like a mayor complaining about not having sportsclubs and hotels, or just newsblips about US actions. Not to mention the immensely corny things like a 'youth soccer player' saying "we're playing with freedom now"

	03-10-2003 18:21									#74
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Yeah, common people who are free to do the simple things we take for granted. And you judge them sitting in a free society.

	03-10-2003 18:23									#75
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You're good with the melodrama. I should take some notes.

	03-10-2003 18:25									#76
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quote: Originally posted by problem_child Lincoln dude, you really are a propaganda-monkey, you just lap it aaaaall up and beleive it from the very bottom of your heart. In a way I kind of admire your rosey innosence, and your faith in the good-will of the statesmen who appear on your teevee in the evening to tell you what's happening, why it's happening, and how brave and noble and good your country is. I bet you still beleive in Santa Claus as well

I said nothing about the "good will" of statesmen. I am talking about everyday people who are happy to have the hope of freedom and do simple things like you and I do without the threat of being tortured. Why do you only "lap up" the bad news?

	03-10-2003 18:36									#77
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Lincoln your country is notorious for it's support of torturers, dictators and genocidal rightist maniacs. So when New Iraq (still Ba'athist) is known to still be a Kurd oppressing totalitarian society in ten years time, you will probably say democracy failed in Iraq despite American attempts to uphold it... elegantly not-seeing that America will have succeded in it's attempts to install a newly obediant Ba'athist regime.

	03-10-2003 18:42									#78
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Who is talking about my country? I am talking about people who are happy to have a chance at freedom. Why can't you see beyond what you consider an evil empire? Most nations were founded on some type of ulterior motive. Is that all you can see?

	03-10-2003 18:47									#79
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i give up. none of you are interested in real discussion.

most of you are so caught up in your side's spun beliefs that you refuse to even listen to the other side.

wish i could kick all of your asses, since they're all sticking out with your heads in the sand.

LALALALALALALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU LALALALALALALALA YOU'RE WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!

that's what this discussion is now.

that's all it has been.

	03-10-2003 18:47									#80
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quote: Most nations were founded on some type of ulterior motive.

What an odd thing to say.

	03-10-2003 19:11									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln Who is talking about my country? I am talking about people who are happy to have a chance at freedom. Why can't you see beyond what you consider an evil empire? Most nations were founded on some type of ulterior motive. Is that all you can see?

Okay I admit that life in Iraq is probably better without Saddam Hussein, but unleashing a pack of wild dogs that happen to savage the local bully doesn't make the pack of wild dogs any less dangerous and disagreable.

	03-10-2003 19:15									#82
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Ok, I will accept your opinion. Have a nice day.

	03-10-2003 19:49									#83
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it's too bad this news can't be mentioned without the ignorant troll...

	03-10-2003 20:07									#84
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MSNBC yesterday ran a piece how new car sales were up 300% and used car sales in Iraq had hit record levels. Saddam had super high tarrifs on foreign made goods so very few people could afford to buy a car. Now, with Saddam and his tarrifs gone tons of Iraqis are rushing out to buy cars. The DMV offices are said to be almost over welmed by the shear number of people who are trying to register new cars.

I thought that was interesting as it showed everything was not so bad in Iraq. People have money to plunk down on new cars and they must feel good about the future if they're willing to make such a large purchase.

	03-10-2003 20:10									#85
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Maybe they're buying cars for their escape.

	03-10-2003 20:34									#86
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http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/EJ04Ak01.html

	03-10-2003 20:37									#87
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quote: Based on several nationwide surveys it conducted with California-based Knowledge Networks since June, as well as the results of other polls, PIPA found that 48 percent of the public believe US troops found evidence of close pre-war links between Iraq and the al-Qaeda terrorist group; 22 percent thought troops found weapons of mass destruction (WMD) in Iraq; and 25 percent believed that world public opinion favored Washington's going to war with Iraq.

	03-10-2003 20:49									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin MSNBC yesterday ran a piece how new car sales were up 300% and used car sales in Iraq had hit record levels. Saddam had super high tarrifs on foreign made goods so very few people could afford to buy a car. Now, with Saddam and his tarrifs gone tons of Iraqis are rushing out to buy cars. The DMV offices are said to be almost over welmed by the shear number of people who are trying to register new cars. I thought that was interesting as it showed everything was not so bad in Iraq. People have money to plunk down on new cars and they must feel good about the future if they're willing to make such a large purchase.

So now three guys are buying new cars and ten guys bought used cars for 100 dinar each.

And the one guy who works at the one DMV office that's still open has to do everything by hand, and has no office supplies and hasn't been paid since March, so he only shows up one hour one day a week.

I always like percentage stats rather than a comparison of actual hard numbers.

	03-10-2003 21:02									#89
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Nice troll, Lincoln, but tell me this:

Do you think it was worth the the several hundred billion it will ultimately cost?

Do you think it's worth tying up nearly half of the combat power of the US Army in a world with potential threats all over?

Do you think it's worth 3-6 KIA and 40 WIA each week, as stated by Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez of V Corps?

I know it's from the evil commie site, but read the names and ages and look at the photos: the cost of "Iraqi freedom"

How about the reservist grandpa from Tennessee, just driving a truck? Was it worth it for his grandkids? How about Lori Piestewa and her two little kids? And we get to add to the list every week.

There'd better damn well be good news from Iraq and a hell of a lot more than you've cited, because it has to balance against a high price in strategic, financial and human terms.

	04-10-2003 04:35									#90
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Nice troll, Lincoln, but tell me this: Do you think it was worth the the several hundred billion it will ultimately cost? Do you think it's worth tying up nearly half of the combat power of the US Army in a world with potential threats all over? Do you think it's worth 3-6 KIA and 40 WIA each week, as stated by Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez of V Corps? I know it's from the evil commie site, but read the names and ages and look at the photos: the cost of "Iraqi freedom" How about the reservist grandpa from Tennessee, just driving a truck? Was it worth it for his grandkids? How about Lori Piestewa and her two little kids? And we get to add to the list every week. There'd better damn well be good news from Iraq and a hell of a lot more than you've cited, because it has to balance against a high price in strategic, financial and human terms.

First, yea there is plenty more good news than what I have cited. If you can turn off CNN long enough you might be able to find some

And yes I do think it is worth the monetary cost. Freedom is worth more than money especially if you are the one in an Iraqi prison hanging by your toes. The waste of military assets? It will be well worth the waste if that is what you choose to call it when there is a presence in the middle east where nuts can blow themselves up and the military can respond instead of grandma and grandpa riding in the back of a 757.

The cost in lives? Well that is a different story and I cannot presume to speak for anyone who has suffered a loss. But we have a volunteer army and soldiers always know the risk. I cerainly did when I signed up. I thank God that I lived through my tour (spying on Russia in a sub ) I can only hope that the next time people like Saddam will just go away. So far, people like him usually don't, so good men and women pay the price. May they rest in peace.