04-10-2003 05:17									#91
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quote: Even Jesus cleared his temple of the scum who used their religion to ignore the poor and suffering in order to give high-sounding speeches about how much they really cared.

With a machine gun?

	04-10-2003 05:23									#92
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Well if you read the first few chapters of Revelation you tell me who was doing the house cleaning and with what? But, nevertheless you are right, he didn't kill anyone while he was on earth in the flesh and we shouldn't (as Christians) either. But the God ordained civil government is given the sword and they can use it to "punish evil doers". I think even the Amish believe that.

	04-10-2003 05:44									#93
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The decision to rid Saddam with war was RIGHT.

The way they went to war was STUPID.

The war was fought BRILLIANTLY.

The post-war planning was PATHETIC.

	04-10-2003 06:02									#94
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln And yes I do think it is worth the monetary cost. Freedom is worth more than money especially if you are the one in an Iraqi prison hanging by your toes.

Well, since I'm not an Iraqi, it's not real likely. So I guess the policy now will be to bankrupt the US, go to trillion dollar a year deficits (why stop now at a mere half a trillion?) and "liberate" the world? Who's next? Besides, there's nothing yet that guarantees in a decade or two, there won't be plenty of Iraqis hanging from their toes. It wasn't too long ago that the right reminded us it's not our job to be the "world's policeman" - or do we only do that if it's a government we don't like and a country with a useful resource?

quote: The waste of military assets? It will be well worth the waste if that is what you choose to call it when there is a presence in the middle east where nuts can blow themselves up and the military can respond instead of grandma and grandpa riding in the back of a 757.

Airplane hijackings are a bit passe now, and it was lax security, immigration, law enforcement and intelligence that let them happen, not a presence or absence of US forces tied up in Iraq. And somehow, I don't think the entire collection of nutjobs who want to blow themselves up are going after us in Iraq. I'd imagine there's probably one or two still out there. Not to mention other kinds of nutjobs like Dear Leader Kim, or any nutjobs who might find themselves suddenly in power in Pakistan if Musharraf's security detail isn't quite up to par. One reason for having an Army is to be able to react forcefully to crises. Once your Army is tied up, you lose the ability to react to crises, and you have to hope that the squids and airedales can keep the lid on things.

quote: The cost in lives? Well that is a different story and I cannot presume to speak for anyone who has suffered a loss. But we have a volunteer army and soldiers always know the risk. I cerainly did when I signed up. I thank God that I lived through my tour (spying on Russia in a sub ) I can only hope that the next time people like Saddam will just go away. So far, people like him usually don't, so good men and women pay the price. May they rest in peace.

We have a volunteer force, yes, but the general hope/expectation is that we won't squander them. So far, casualties have been relatively light, and results good, but we're also operating at a level we can't sustain indefinitely, let alone increase, without a lot more risk and potentially less results. Time will tell, but I see plenty of reason for cynicism until more results are in.

	04-10-2003 06:03									#95
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quote: And yes, there is a cynical right as well that uses suffering to advance their agenda along with the cynical left.

That would be GOP TV and Bush. Once WMD were hard to find, it became the suffering Iraqis. Hell, if they had said that from the beginning when Saddam was butchering people in the 1980's, I'd have a reason to believe their stated motives.

	04-10-2003 06:12									#96
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quote: But the God ordained civil government is given the sword and they can use it to "punish evil doers". I think even the Amish believe that.

God ordained the cruelty of Roman dictators who killed Christians? Oh, "evil doers"? But those Christians were "evil". That's the problem with your claim that God ordains governments (Saddam's as well?) to punish evil doers, it's the government that'll decide who is evil and you can be sure the government won't use logic or any standard. Never has, never will. The biblical passage you're using was advise to governments, not some divine mandate for governments.

	04-10-2003 06:22									#97
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quote: But the God ordained civil government is given the sword and they can use it to "punish evil doers". I think even the Amish believe that.

Lincoln:

Why must civil government use lethal force to punish criminals? Secondly, this argument is not applicable to Iraq, because the Iraqis were not under the US mandate.

Berz:

Actually, that passage is used in the sense of purifying religious authorities, to refocus the attention not on selling, but on God, in God's temple.

Nothing to do with sanctioning force.

	04-10-2003 09:47									#98
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quote: Originally posted by Lord Merciless The decision to rid Saddam with war was RIGHT. The way they went to war was STUPID. The war was fought BRILLIANTLY. The post-war planning was PATHETIC.

With the exception of being less categorical about the first one, I generally agree with LM.....

Though for me, the reality of number two (where I would be much more harsh..it wasn;t just stupid) outweights one, becuase Iraq is just one part of a bigger mesh.

Oh, and Lincoln, be glad that no one here is willing to just come up with an equally long list of Iraqis complaining about what has gone on just to show you that a listed set of opinons does not an agruement make.

	04-10-2003 19:04									#99
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Berz and Ben,

I have to get off this computer for a few days to get some work done so this will have to be my last post for a while. The "sword", Ben, is "not carried in vain". Or so says the scriptures. So I think it is safe to asume (especially in view of the rest of the Bible) that death is an option for inflicting punishment. Regarding the US intervention into Iraq I suppose that depends on how much of a real threat they were to the peace and security of America. That will continue to be debated I am sure.

As far as evil governments go, I couldn't agree more that there are quite a few that prefer to punish the good and reward the evil. And I also agree that the cited biblical passage was to advise and not a mandate to pretend that anything goes and blaming the result on God. Too bad that mankind has drifted so far from decent government but that will be dealt with in due time as well. I meant "ordained" in the sense that the structure of some type of order is ordained. Governments cannot kill, maim and squander with impunity.

Mike, GePap and everyone else;

You are entitled to your opinions even if they are wrong.

	04-10-2003 19:26									#100
	Got spare money?

if Iraquis say it, it must be true!:

quote: Questions are Raised on Awarding of Contracts in Iraq By PATRICK E. TYLER and RAYMOND BONNER Published: October 4, 2003 BAGHDAD, Iraq, Oct. 3 — Last month the Iraqi Governing Council questioned why the American occupation authority had issued a $20 million contract to buy new revolvers and Kalashnikov rifles for the Iraqi police when the United States military was confiscating tens of thousands of weapons every month from Saddam Hussein's abandoned arsenals. On Wednesday the Iraqi council, in a testy exchange with the occupation administrator, L. Paul Bremer III, challenged an American decision to spend $1.2 billion to train 35,000 Iraqi police officers in Jordan when such training could be done in Iraq for a fraction of the cost. Germany and France have offered to provide such training free. These decisions are being questioned by Iraqi officials as Congress is also seeking to examine how the American occupation authority and the military are spending billions of dollars here. Iraqi officials and businessmen charge that millions of dollars in contracts are being awarded without competitive bidding, some of them to former cronies of Mr. Hussein's government. "There is no transparency," said Mahmoud Othman, a Kurdish member of the Governing Council, "and something has to be done about it. "There is mismanagement right and left, and I think we have to sit with Congress face to face to discuss this. A lot of American money is being wasted, I think. We are victims and the American taxpayers are victims." A number of businessmen say they believe it is necessary to pay kickbacks to win contracts. A spokesman for one of the largest American corporations awarding subcontracts here, Bechtel, said his company had neither paid any kickbacks nor had been approached by Iraqis seeking to pay kickbacks. He said Bechtel made all of its contract information available on its Web site and at offices in Baghdad and Basra. A check of the Web site on Friday found no information, only a notice that the site was "under construction." The lack of transparency and competition, Governing Council members said in interviews, may be encouraging corruption. They said they believed that many contracts had been inflated beyond the reasonable cost for the work, creating opportunities for kickbacks between prime contractors and subcontractors. One council member, Naseer K. Chadirji, said: "As the Governing Council we are in a very weak legal position. We don't have the right to investigate these contracts." He added, "I don't have the evidence, but I think there is corruption. This is a common grievance that people tell me." An Iraqi executive, who made millions of dollars as an insider under the Hussein government and would not allow his name to be used, said a relative outside Iraq had asserted that a Bechtel executive was looking to become a silent partner in an Iraqi company that would be favored with subcontracts from Bechtel. A senior Bechtel official in Iraq, Clifford George Mumm, said that his company "would fire immediately anyone who tried to do such a thing" and that he did not believe that any Bechtel executive would engage in the kind of behavior described. Mr. Mumm said there had been no kickbacks on the 105 subcontracts Bechtel had signed with Iraqi firms. Asked about Iraqi assertions that Bechtel and other major American companies were awarding contracts to Iraqis who had grown rich under Mr. Hussein, Mr. Mumm said all of the Iraqi businesses that received Bechtel subcontracts were vetted by the occupation authority under Mr. Bremer. The largest and most prominent Iraqi subcontractor that has emerged belongs to the Bunnia family, which grew immensely wealthy under the former government and was known for lavishing gifts, especially luxury cars, on members of the Hussein family. "It is hard to understand the rationale for giving them contracts," said an American businessman. Bunnia family members, in interviews over the last several months, have denied that they supported the old government and have said their business skills are needed to rebuild the country. Looking at a list of companies that received subcontracts from Becthel, Mr. Othman, the Governing Council member, said he recognized at least a half-dozen that had profited from close relations with Mr. Hussein or members of his family. Samir Sumaidy, a member of the Governing Council who owns a construction firm doing business in China, said Friday that the Iraqi interim government received no information from Mr. Bremer's authority on how it was spending Iraqi and American funds. An American businessman, who would not allow his name to be used, said the occupation authority was doling out contracts worth hundreds of thousands of dollars by simply telephoning favored companies and announcing, "I have a contract for you," as he characterized a telephone call he received this week. Mr. Othman said, "I hope Congress knows what is going on, but if they don't know and we don't know, then God help everybody." Council members said the contract to train Iraqi police officers in Jordan offended them because Jordan would draw a large payment from the dwindling Iraqi treasury and because many Iraqis resented Jordan's close ties to old government. "The Iraqis are not very happy to see such large sums of money put in the hands of Jordan," said Mr. Chadirji, a lawyer and Governing Council member. At a news briefing on Friday, Charles Heatly, a spokesman for the occupation authority, said 35,000 police offers were to be trained in Jordan because the necessary facilities did not exist in Iraq, an assertion that several Governing Council members challenged. The Jordan plan was formally announced on Friday in a press release. Mr. Heatly said he thought that most council members had understood and agreed with Mr. Bremer's presentation on police training in their meeting on Wednesday. But five council members said in interviews that the interim Iraqi government opposed the plan. "If we had voted, a majority would have rejected it," Mr. Chadirji said. "He told us what he did; he did not ask us." The purchase of about 20,000 Kalashnikov automatic weapons, 50,000 revolvers and 10 million rounds of ammunition from Jordan has also been widely criticized by Iraqi Governing Council members. The contract was issued by the Interior Ministry during the summer when it was being supervised by the former New York City police commissioner, Bernard B. Kerik. Mr. Kerik did not respond to requests for an interview. "It is totally unnecessary to buy them from outside the country," said Mr. Chadirji, who noted that he had purchased a number of Kalashnikovs to arm his personal bodyguards and that the price in the local market was as low as $50 for each weapon. Mr. Heatly said logistical problems associated with buying so many Kalashnikovs in small lots from the Iraqi market would be excessive. There would be no cost if the occupation authority obtained them from the United States military, which is now the custodian of countless thousands of Iraqi weapons, many of them said to be in mint condition. Mr. Heatly did not have figures for the number of Kalashnikovs in allied hands, but he said there were not enough of them to satisfy the requirements of the contract.

Still a sad troll.

	04-10-2003 19:52									#101
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Because of the presence of US soldiers, CBeasts no longer threaten Iraqi children.

	04-10-2003 19:58									#102
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Wow, that was a piece of art, DaShi.

	04-10-2003 21:01									#103
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Osweld, I assume you are ignorant of the fact that one of Saddam's children tortured the Iraqi soccer team when it lost. Otherwise, you would not make such a callous statement.