15-10-2003 01:03									#61
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I would rather not mess with my executable files. I vote for banning tech trade, or limiting it.

	15-10-2003 02:22									#62
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I agree with PinkyGen.

Would the 1/5th tech also mean 1/5th of money?

	15-10-2003 07:01									#63
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quote: Originally posted by PinkyGen I would rather not mess with my executable files. I vote for banning tech trade, or limiting it.

1. It wouldn't mess with your executable at all; I'd email you a second file that you'd only use for this PBEM. It would have NO effect on your original files.
2. Be sure that this 'undisclosed character' and I will extensively test the file to make sure it won't cause any problems.

quote: Originally posted by germanos Would the 1/5th tech also mean 1/5th of money?

No, the money is determined by a different equation.

	15-10-2003 09:37									#64
	Put an end to popups!

Playing the game SP, you can still move through the tech tree very quickly just through using Mfg Goods, so if there's a guarantee that it won't crash the game, as Exile warned, I'm willing to try out what Darius proposed, but cutting the amount to 1/5 is probably a bit steep. Also this would change the amount of gold received too right?

Also, tech trading between countries is sort of what's going on when you get the beaker bonus for making a trade route, it represents the diffusion of knowledge through contact with other nations. Even though it does give you bonuses toward techs that no one else may have

	15-10-2003 09:58									#65
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quote: Originally posted by JamesJKirk Also this would change the amount of gold received too right?

As aforementioned, the money is determined by a different equation than the one being altered.

	15-10-2003 10:03									#66
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Right, but I didn't notice the third page until after I posted

	17-10-2003 00:12									#67
	Re: Well . . . . . Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Exile To begin with, you gentlemen have far more experience than I do with MP.

Well, thank you

quote: You'll have to use your own judgement about tech trading. I allowed this in the game because it certainaly did occur historically. The key here is restraint. Something very few avid gamers seem to recognize. ...But the conclusion that, if everyone goes nuts w/tech trading the result will be that everyone zips through the tech tree by 1875 . . . is valid. That can certainly happen. But then, maybe that's what would have occurred--a global war well before the historical outbreak of WWI

I couldn't agree more

quote: Alternately, it would be a simple matter to greatly increase the cost of the Mfg Goods unit... The reason I made these units so inexpensive was that I wanted them built. Lots of them... Here again, the hard-coded limitations of the program place a ceiling on the numbers available.

Personally, having witnessed the huge revenue these units bring (especially in the science department) I would still produce them in huge quantaties if their cost would have been trippled
But, as I have noticed the cost for certain units and improvements has been greatly increased, things might balance out more in this version. I have not playtested this version (I'll do playing this PBEM ), but I would rather increase the cost for trade-units then mess with the executable. It won't stop me from building them

quote: In a MP game, the conferences could have an entirely different purpose--to limit tech trading.

That's up to us guys Let's make this an interesting game. Limits, a ban, free for all? Betrayal of the benefactor? We still need some votes.

quote: The Barbs in version 2 are VERY much more powerful than in version 1. Additionally, they appear at random in various places and run amok. IIRC, playing at King level does not increase any numbers, but playing at Prince level decreases numbers. This might not be advisable. Also, playing at King gives the unrest numbers that I intended. However, these unrest numbers could be altered and then the Prince level of play could be maintained. My own advice is not to play at Prince.

I noticed that in previous version the barbs don't actually build units (eventhough they are supposed to). Is that normal? (I never bothered about barbs much before I started to play scenario's in PBEM, so forgive me my ignorance)

Oh, and thanks Exile for your great work

	17-10-2003 04:35									#68
	Full PM-box? Change here!

The barbs are definitely more active in this version. They even start with some Cannons.
There are still alot of event-supplied barbs, but usually it's just one weak units that runs around and gets killed attacking something, no big deal. But (as the Germans) the Zulu War event did cause me to lose me 20000 gold when I gave into their demands so they didn't sack Bloemfontein, and I lost Dar Es Salaam at one point too. Definitely better than last time

Also, if you want to see about barb unit creation, here's Madagascar, as you can see they overran Diego Suarez (actually they did twice) and have just multiplied ever since.

Attachment: mad.gif
This has been downloaded 72 time(s).

	17-10-2003 09:13									#69
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Ok, well John Doe is working on the .exe file as we speak, I need to know whether to tell him nevermind. What's everyone's final position on an edited .exe (knowing that John and I will test it beforehand)?

conmcb25:
Germanos:
Darius871: For
JamesJKirk:
Pinkygen:
academia:

	17-10-2003 09:47									#70
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I can put the .exe in a different folder than in my regular civ2 directory, and still have it work? Cause otherwise I don't want to constantly change it back and forth whenever I load this PBEM.

	17-10-2003 10:14									#71
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The .exe could probably just as likely have a name different than civ2.exe and still function.

At this point, I'm leaning towards FOR, but I'd like for you to keep us updated with your tests, Darius.

	17-10-2003 10:29									#72
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Against

	17-10-2003 10:29									#73
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I don´t know what the hell are you talking about. I´ve never had problems with the executable files
Do whatever you want. i have faith in you guys

	17-10-2003 14:48									#74
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I'm against messing with the .exe file.

	20-10-2003 05:14									#75
	Remove this text

JamesJkirk, you're up.

	20-10-2003 05:37									#76
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by PinkyGen I can put the .exe in a different folder than in my regular civ2 directory, and still have it work? Cause otherwise I don't want to constantly change it back and forth whenever I load this PBEM.

This is why I dont want to do it either.

And who is John Doe, why does this have to be so secret?

Tell us who it is or forget it.

	20-10-2003 06:26									#77
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I already posted my turn, on the last page, it's Darius' turn

	20-10-2003 07:26									#78
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quote: Originally posted by conmcb25 This is why I dont want to do it either.

Of course you would just put the .exe in a separate file and use it only for this PBEM. How did you think we'd do it?

quote: Originally posted by conmcb25 And who is John Doe, why does this have to be so secret? Tell us who it is or forget it.

He wasn't quite certain of the legality of editing it and didn't want to take the risk, so asked that he remain anonymous. Personally I don't see any risk in what he's doing but I'll respect his decision, so let's just say you know him very well. If you really need to know just IM me, and don't post it on the boards.

	21-10-2003 02:30									#79
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Good news gentlemen!!!

Yaroslav (since this time he's not editing any Microprose property he let me say who it was) has found a way to edit the .net file to change beaker progress from trade routes. On this thread the idea came up, and he applied it to this game. As many of you know, the number of techs that your civ has determines the number of beakers you'll need to gain to discover a tech. It turns out that through hex-editing, you can change the number of techs a civ has without changing the techs it actually has. In other words, you can take a civ with 20 techs and 'trick' the game into thinking it has 95, so the civ has to get more beakers per tech.

Yaroslav did exactly this, and my tests show it worked perfectly. I started a game with the original .scn, and moved a machinery caravan from New York to Dublin, which demands it. Then I did the same thing with the edited .scn where each civ has 75 extra techs. Eureka!



This is exactly what we were looking for: it changed the amount of beakers gained by the route, while the amount of gold gained remained the same! Feel free to test it yourselves:

Route Test, Unedited.sav
Route Test, Edited.sav

He has edited the German .net in the same manner (click here if you want to test) so that the first players won't have to replay, so I need to know your positions before I play on. Considering the successful tests (and that Gerben and Steve trust Javier's skills firsthand from working on the CivDip project), I don't know how anyone can oppose this. Just to be sure though:

conmcb25: For
Germanos:
Darius871: For
JamesJKirk:
Pinkygen: For
academia:

Oh btw, YAROSLAV IS A GOD!!!

Last edited by Darius871 on 21-10-2003 at 03:16

	21-10-2003 02:58									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Darius871 Oh btw, YAROSLAV IS A GOD!!!

Hail Yaroslav!

	21-10-2003 03:04									#81
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So we just play the next .net file and its changed?

If that is so I dont have a problem with it, I just didn't want to mess with extra .exe files.

Answer this then Ill vote

	21-10-2003 03:06									#82
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Yes, play the .net file with the standard EXE file

	21-10-2003 03:16									#83
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quote: Originally posted by conmcb25 If that is so I dont have a problem with it, I just didn't want to mess with extra .exe files.

Didn't you say last night that you were cool with it as long as Javier did it? (not that it matters now)

	21-10-2003 03:17									#84
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Well, this is quite a feat, and let me first congratulate Darius for being such a persistent bugger and get the project done

It surely seems that this approach can level some of the awkward tech-acquiring that can, and has been, done in the previous versions of this scen.

Me being on the short end of the stick here, I do have a question though:

How will we determine the 'new' tech 'amount' each civ has?
Surely, the increased tech number does also affect the 'regular' research rate, and for some reason (that I can yet not fathom) Exile gave Japan the 'Meji restoration' Wonder so Japan would at some point be able to catch up with the major Imperial powers.

Now, as Japan has the effectively lowest tech 'amount' of all civs, an increase by 75 will affect Japan more then it will affect civs with a higher tech count.
(for example: US has 20; +75= 375% increase
Japan has 15; +75 = 500% increase)

Does Yaro's approach accomodate for this? Reding your decription of the work done by Yaroslav, different increases for different civs definitely seem to be an option.


For now, I'll hold my vote.

@ Yaro and Darius.

	21-10-2003 03:22									#85
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I don't have problems modifying the number of techs in a different way for each civ, only tell me what you want

	21-10-2003 03:23									#86
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quote: Originally posted by germanos Surely, the increased tech number does also affect the 'regular' research rate

It certainly does. Rather than affecting the amount of beakers gained from a trade route, it affects the number of beakers that need to be gained in order to acquire the tech. Therefore, the beakers gained in your cities are also affected. You don't make any more or less beakers, they just become less valuable.

quote: Originally posted by germanos Now, as Japan has the effectively lowest tech 'amount' of all civs, an increase by 75 will affect Japan more then it will affect civs with a higher tech count. (for example: US has 20; +75= 375% increase Japan has 15; +75 = 500% increase)

1) If I understand the process correctly, the less advanced civs would benefit from this imbalance. If anything that's fair as it gives them a chance against the more advanced civs.

2) The math you used doesn't seem correct: 95 is only 5.6% higher than 90, meaning that the civ with 15 techs would only research 5.6% faster than the civ with 20 techs, although I could be wrong.

3) Since alliance members will inevitably give techs to one another, within 2-3 turns we'll probably all have the same number of techs anyway.

	21-10-2003 03:55									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Darius871 3) Since alliance members will inevitably give techs to one another, within 2-3 turns we'll probably all have the same number of techs anyway.

I'm not sure if tech trading will be allowed. To me the two things appear to be seperate things altogether

On the math:
Yeah, I have no idea either which party would benefit the most. But it seems logical (it's 1 AM here) that an increased tech cost, determined by an standard increament would benefit the party for whom the increament is the lowest in relation to its original rate.

But I could be very wrong here .

	21-10-2003 04:02									#88
	Remove this text

The increment in tech cost, is course, lesser for the civ with the most tech, but as it started with the bigger tech cost, I think it pays off... (however, it's also 1AM here -same timezone for NL and Spain)

	21-10-2003 04:06									#89
	Remove this text

Good night Yaro

I'll do some math in the morning, with a good espresso at hand .

	21-10-2003 04:10									#90
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

well, tell me what number of techs you want to give to every civ and I'll do...

good night