05-10-2003 02:52									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov Mordoch - I seem to recall seeing you on the Civ III forums? Are you Israeli / Jewish?

I think you're mistaking me for someone else. You'd see me under this forum name on these forums, the off topic and Paradox Games portions, and the Official Paradox Entertainment forums under this forum name.

I'm a Reform Jew from Denver, Colorado, USA.

	05-10-2003 02:52									#32
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Siro, tell Ned all about it, please...

	05-10-2003 03:05									#33
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The identity of the bomber tells us all we need to know about motive.

"A 27 year old lawyer who was recruited by Islamic Jihad after her brother was killed by the Israelis." - BBC News

	05-10-2003 03:08									#34
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Sounds like a home made problem.

	05-10-2003 03:09									#35
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Agathon, that is sad. But then again, that has very little to do with bombing bunch of random civies.

Why didn't she attack some patrolling soldiers for example? In my eyes that would have made her some kind of a fighter, though it still would be questionable. Now, nothing but a piece of terrorist scum.

	05-10-2003 03:15									#36
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And this is the reason why I'm on Israels side. Well let's say more in Israels than Palestines, since I think they do overkills sometimes too.

Attack civies on purpose, blow them to pieces in civilian locations, that doesn't make you freedom fighter. That makes you a terrorist. Terrorist is a terrorist is a terrorist.

So you say someones terrorist is someones freedom fighter? In this case, wrong. Has got very little to do with anyones freedom to kill civilians. When they start organized attacks against soldiers, politicians, high ranking officers and the kinds, then I call it freedom fighting, and then I have to check my position again how I think about the situation. Now? I don't care who's right and who's wrong, at least Israel tries to avoid innocent civilians and target the terrorists with pretty good accuracy btw. So, until they change the habit of acting out of hatred instead of acting to fight the fighters, acting to kill anyone, child, old people, women and men having coffee or travelling in bus.. .. you get 0 sympathy from me.

	05-10-2003 03:17									#37
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Pekka I knew you'er crazy, but are you totally nuts now?

	05-10-2003 03:17									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka Agathon, that is sad. But then again, that has very little to do with bombing bunch of random civies. Why didn't she attack some patrolling soldiers for example? In my eyes that would have made her some kind of a fighter, though it still would be questionable. Now, nothing but a piece of terrorist scum.

I suspect her brother was a civilian casualty. Lets not forget that the Palestinian death rate is over double that of the Israelis and that this person's country is being occupied by Israel.

	05-10-2003 03:18									#39
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I'm actually sick now, bad flue thanks for caring.

But, what part of the post you disagree with or you'd like me to clarify?

	05-10-2003 03:19									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Vesayen Because each suicide attack is one closer to him being exiled or shot.

As long as an evil mastermind is needed, he'll be fine. Unless the peace process starts to pick up again and needs to be halted, or it becomes untenable to claim that he's a super-villain without doing anything about it.

	05-10-2003 03:20									#41
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Agathon, sure, very likely. Like I said it is sad and I mean it. If I was this woman, I'd be so mad and angry I'd forget all the reasoning too and want to make it even and then some. I don't know what I'd do in reality, since I'm fortunate enough to not have experienced that kind of tragedy, but I'd like to think I go after IDF. I could see some honour in it and justify my actions.

I could not justify blowing myself up in busy spot trying to kill as many civilians as possible.

So, this is the reason I have no sympathy for this woman. Well, maybe little, but not too much anyway. There are very few things that justifies killing random people because of personal tragedy, and right now I can't think of any of them. Maybe she just went crazy, which is 99% possibility. So, why not take it on IDF?

	05-10-2003 03:23									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Lets not forget that the Palestinian death rate is over double that of the Israelis

So more deaths means more innocence?

WW2:
US deaths: ~300,000
German deaths: ~5 million.

::sarcasm::
Obviously, we fought on the wrong side of that war.
::sarcasm off:

	05-10-2003 03:23									#43
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They do that as well, but presumably they want eye for an eye for civilian deaths.

It's just silly. If only GWB would put his foot down.

	05-10-2003 03:26									#44
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Sure, but at least they try to take out the ones behind these attacks. These suicide bombers don't even try attacking soldiers. To me, every single person belonging to Jihad groups etc can be considered a soldier. It doesn't matter if they have killed anyone or not, it is their purpose to do so in the future. So, they are legimate targets, anywhere, any time.

	05-10-2003 03:27									#45
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So, it should be even easier to the 'freedom fighters'.
IDF guys wears uniforms. How hard is it to snipe few of them? Attack the ones that attacked you if you want to make it even.

edit: And I'm not speaking about Palestinians in general. I'm talking about the ones in these organsations and the ones behind attacks. And I'm not talking about their Palestines cause and their claims if their legimate or not, that I don't know, they most of the times confuse me with Israels claims. And basically, I just like to keep it simple. So, that's where I drew the line, and used it to guide my position. Like I said, I don't even wait for the attacks to stop, I just want the attacks against civilians on purpose to stop. I'm not saying I want to see attacks against IDF, so don't get me wrong. But when I start reading about that instead of attacks against civilians, then I start learning more about other sides claims and what's happening behind the curtains.

And I realize this is not something the whole population of Palestine wants, these suicide bombers. But, as long as Arafat does nothing about it, I can't support it. As long as he can't do anything about it AND still stays in power and doesn't step down, I can't support it with my heart in it. I wish Palestine well, and I feel bad when by standers get killed by the IDF, on purpose by some soldier who is nuts, or by accident.. I don't want that either. No one wants that?! All I want is for them all to stop the whole thing, and as of now, I can't be completely undecided on who's side I am. Because of the terrorist attacks.

Last edited by Pekka on 05-10-2003 at 03:36

	05-10-2003 03:36									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka Sure, but at least they try to take out the ones behind these attacks. These suicide bombers don't even try attacking soldiers. To me, every single person belonging to Jihad groups etc can be considered a soldier. It doesn't matter if they have killed anyone or not, it is their purpose to do so in the future. So, they are legimate targets, anywhere, any time.

Are you including the stone throwing kids they shoot?

	05-10-2003 03:37									#47
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Agathon, As I said, I think IDF does overkills sometimes, and I don't think that's righ either.

	05-10-2003 03:44									#48
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Also this is why I thought it would be better to give something to charities that helps the victims. When I have another extra ten, I can give that to the victims in Palestinian side as well.

	05-10-2003 04:01									#49
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quote: Surely some Democrats must be pro-Israel

That was something I couldn't expect from you, Ned

It's the law of nature that if a Republican takes a crap, a Democrat will do the exact contrary- which actually sounds like something weird and gross that I shouldn't have said in the first place

	05-10-2003 04:06									#50
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Datajack Franit, The important question is, what does it mean? Does it mean going to pee, or sucking poo inside?

	05-10-2003 04:18									#51
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quote: Datajack Franit, The important question is, what does it mean? Does it mean going to pee, or sucking poo inside?

And I was concerned about MY post


BTW Weren't you used to have a higher post ranking than that?

	05-10-2003 04:20									#52
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post ranking? what is that? You mean Chieftain? Nah.. I just got out of my Settler rank..

	05-10-2003 04:37									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Datajack Franit That was something I couldn't expect from you, Ned It's the law of nature that if a Republican takes a crap, a Democrat will do the exact contrary- which actually sounds like something weird and gross that I shouldn't have said in the first place

	05-10-2003 05:06									#54
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quote: I suspect her brother was a civilian casualty.

EDITED:

quote: Hanadi Taisyr Geradat, a single woman and a part of family of six. She is the elder sister of Fahdi Geradat, an Islamic Jihad activist that was killed together with her cousin Salah Geradat, a senior in the "Al-Aqsa Brigades". Border guard infantry forces arrived in June to arrest her cousin who stayed in her house in eastern Jenin. According to the family members, Hanadi was present in the house when Salah and Fahdi were killed in a shootout with the IDF soldiers.

quote: Lets not forget that the Palestinian death rate is over double that of the Israelis and that this person's country is being occupied by Israel.

Let's not forget that the IDF manages to foil over 85% of terrorist attack attempts. In this light, the successfull attacks cause 15% of the death-rate the effort intended to cause.

You know math. That means that the death-rate IDF has inflicted upon the Palestinians, usually by mistake, are about, oh, 30% of what the Palestinians inteded to inflict upon Israel on purpose.


And don't forget that we are not occupying any country since no country exists or ever existed there.

Israel currently occupies some parts of territories that are disputed. Both the Palestinians and Israel have some legitimate and some religious claims for them. (not that religion is illegitimate, but it's different).

quote: Are you including the stone throwing kids they shoot?

Are you including the several Israelis including a baby child that were killed by method of stonning their car on the road?
(and I mean directly killed by a stone. not killed in a traffic accident resulting from the incident)

	05-10-2003 05:29									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov [q]And don't forget that we are not occupying any country since no country exists or ever existed there.

What never ?

By your argument then the treatment that the Jews suffered in europe over the last 1500 years is equally valid - I mean you didn't have a country then either so you should've abided by the (draconian) laws of the lands you lived in.

But then again maybe i'm not taking the right tack - 'an eye for an eye' is from Jewish tradition, 'turn the other cheek' is from christian - maybe us westerners shouldn't expect good behaviour from a state that follows a religion that advocates such violence.

	05-10-2003 05:46									#56
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quote: What never ?

The last sovereign state that existed mainly in the area now known as Palestine, was the Monarchy of Judea. Or you could include th brief periods when Jerusalem was controlled by the Crusaders.

Other than that, Palestine was always a rather small province of larger empires - Byzanium, The Arab Caliphate, The Ottoman Empire, The British Empire (under mandatorial law).

quote: By your argument then the treatment that the Jews suffered in europe over the last 1500 years is equally valid - I mean you didn't have a country then either so you should've abided by the (draconian) laws of the lands you lived in.

I completely fail to see how this is connected.

Never have I said that the Palestinains lacking a sovereign country, ever justifies any harm done to them.

What I do say, is that the Palestinains lacking a sovereign country can also never justify any harm they inflict upon Israelis. (like Agathon's statement seems to suggest)

Furthermore, I corrected Agathon's statement about Israel supposedly occupying a Palestinain country. Such country never existed. The closest thing to it is Jordan, which still exists. But Jordan doesn't want any more Palestinians and they don't all want to live in Jordan.

Just because the Palestinains lived in the province of Palestine for some time, doesn't make it a Palestinian country. It may make it Palestinian land, if they had actually owned the land upon which they settled. Which sometimes they did, and sometimes they didn't.

Many landlords often sold the land for a nice profit to the Ottomanians, Jews or Brittish.

quote: But then again maybe i'm not taking the right tack - 'an eye for an eye' is from Jewish tradition, 'turn the other cheek' is from christian - maybe us westerners shouldn't expect good behaviour from a state that follows a religion that advocates such violence.

Well that is just an anti-semitic smear.

What now, you are going to blame me for crucifying Jesus , you anti-semitic wako?

	05-10-2003 06:02									#57
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Why is it anti-semetic to criticize Judaism's seeming lack of mercy?

Is Judasim the one religion worldwide that has no faults?

Instead of calling me names a better reply would have been to quote the Torah showing that I was mistaken.

You seem to believe that Judaism can do no wrong - that's the definition of a religious wacko

	05-10-2003 06:05									#58
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quote: Originally posted by el freako But then again maybe i'm not taking the right tack - 'an eye for an eye' is from Jewish tradition, 'turn the other cheek' is from christian - maybe us westerners shouldn't expect good behaviour from a state that follows a religion that advocates such violence.

Yeah, like western countries "turn the other cheek"

	05-10-2003 06:19									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Vesayen Originally posted by Sandman Arafat has condemned the attack. Because each suicide attack is one closer to him being exiled or shot.

Heh. Now ain't that the damn truth.

	05-10-2003 06:28									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov quote: I suspect her brother was a civilian casualty. EDITED: quote: Hanadi Taisyr Geradat, a single woman and a part of family of six. She is the elder sister of Fahdi Geradat, an Islamic Jihad activist that was killed together with her cousin Salah Geradat, a senior in the "Al-Aqsa Brigades". Border guard infantry forces arrived in June to arrest her cousin who stayed in her house in eastern Jenin. According to the family members, Hanadi was present in the house when Salah and Fahdi were killed in a shootout with the IDF soldiers.

Thanks for the info - the BBC did not say so on the 6 o'clock broadcast.

quote: quote: Lets not forget that the Palestinian death rate is over double that of the Israelis and that this person's country is being occupied by Israel. Let's not forget that the IDF manages to foil over 85% of terrorist attack attempts. In this light, the successfull attacks cause 15% of the death-rate the effort intended to cause. You know math. That means that the death-rate IDF has inflicted upon the Palestinians, usually by mistake, are about, oh, 30% of what the Palestinians inteded to inflict upon Israel on purpose.

And Israel never misses of course. This is GWB Fuzzy Math.

quote: And don't forget that we are not occupying any country since no country exists or ever existed there.

Of course you are the only people who believe that.

quote: Israel currently occupies some parts of territories that are disputed. Both the Palestinians and Israel have some legitimate and some religious claims for them. (not that religion is illegitimate, but it's different). quote: Are you including the stone throwing kids they shoot? Are you including the several Israelis including a baby child that were killed by method of stonning their car on the road? (and I mean directly killed by a stone. not killed in a traffic accident resulting from the incident)

I'm talking about the ones that throw stones at tanks.

Until people like you, Siro, realize that you will have to leave the West Bank to even begin to solve these problems, they will continue. That is of course, unless Sharon expels the Palestinians (ethnic cleansing as it's known), in which case Israelis won't be able to travel anywhere except the US without being spat on and attacked in the street.