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el freako
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Bristol, European Union
Oct 1999
time: 05:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Sirotnikov
It's different into two manners.
1. The Jewish leadership never acitevely propogated the jews to leave their homes with the promise of a later return when the battles are over.
2. It came first (1920, 1929...)
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The first is debatable, I mean in a war (as in 1948) surely the majority left regardless of the leaderships policies.
The second is purely daft - I mean most Jews left the levant well over a millenia ago, surely that would diminish your claim more.
quote:
Originally posted by Sirotnikov
1. I don't know that exactly now, and I don't think it matters. The heart of the matter that it was a legitimate jewish town.
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quote:
Originally posted by Sirotnikov
Am I to think that you also follow that scrutiny for the Palestinian side, and demand every returning Palestinian to go exactly to the site where his grand parent used to live?
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This definately looks like double-standards to me, however you redeem yourself by showing your true colours...
quote:
Originally posted by Sirotnikov
I'm against any future Right of Return for any of the sides. That would mean no Palestinians returning to Israel anymore, and no new Israeli settlements.
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That at least would be a start... assuming that you are not talking about restricting immigration into israel on ethnic grounds (the immigrants should become Israelis).
quote:
Originally posted by Sirotnikov
Currently I support the uprooting of some (most), only as part of a final deal. No free gifts. If we get no deal, no uprooting should take place.
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And that would be a good, the trouble is that sections of both Israeli and Palestinian society want it all - unless they can be marginalized on both sides thenthe future is bleak.
quote:
Originally posted by Sirotnikov
They had a good claim. Ripping up portions of Germany and giving it to other countries was an utterly idiotic idea. Peoples with strong nationalistic feelings should be kept in one country.
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I think you are remembering your history wrong here - Germany was only really divided up after the second world war (indeed the 'german problem' was solved by the ethnic cleansing of over 10m germans from eastern europe).
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Sirotnikov
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<--- Yes, It's a "kitty" in a boot.
Feb 2000
time: 07:31
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quote:
The first is debatable, I mean in a war (as in 1948) surely the majority left regardless of the leaderships policies. |
Yes, but actually most Arab population points were not attacked or threatened.
Many of them left because they thought that the Arab armies will wreak havoc on the Jews, and didn't want to be caught up in the fight.
If you want, there's an Article by Efraim Karsh, an Israeli-British historian, talking about the way many Arabs left Haifa.
quote:
The second is purely daft - I mean most Jews left the levant well over a millenia ago, surely that would diminish your claim more. |
I'm not sure I follow you.
I'm saying that in the current conflict, Jews suffered from events which could be labled "ethnic cleansing" first.
quote:
This definately looks like double-standards to me, however you redeem yourself by showing your true colours... |
Well while I'm against R&R I'm not going to want to completely disband everything Israel achieved.
I obviously want a fair solution, but I'm not ready to draw the map blank, and begin distributing everything as if 5 wars didn't happen, and Israel didn't gain more territory. I'm not silly nor do I claim to be completely objective. I claim to be able to see the objective point. That doesn't mean that my aspirations are to achieve that or that I always argue objectively. I'm admittedly pro-Israeli.
quote:
That at least would be a start... assuming that you are not talking about restricting immigration into israel on ethnic grounds (the immigrants should become Israelis). |
I'm very much talking about restricting immigration into Israel by which ever grounds we find necessary to keep this a Jewish nation both demographics wise, and in culture and spirit.
There are political states, and there are nation states. Canada and USA are political states. Germany, Poland, and Israel are nation states.
Israel is and should remain a Jewish state, offering full rights to minorities.
There's no reason why Israel should be even-handed in its Immigration policies. No nation is truely even-handed and all have different critereas. USA and Canada want sane productive members of society. Germany and Russia iirc have special laws for 'blood-link' immigrants.
quote:
And that would be a good, the trouble is that sections of both Israeli and Palestinian society want it all - unless they can be marginalized on both sides thenthe future is bleak. |
I agree.
However I think that currently most of the Palestinian leadership thinks it can eventually get it all - using sneaky strategies.
I also think that following the propoganda and steps taken in the Oslo process, much more Palestinian people think that they can eventually get it all, than who thought so in 1990.
On the Israeli side I see a reverse trend. I think that less and less people think that we can eventually be left with all or even most of the West Bank and Gaza.
That doesn't mean however that more people support leaving the territories now. Many think that now it is crucial to stop the current leadership, and so to speak "de-nazify" the Palestinian population. Re-educate the people who were taught to sacrify their children and their lives.
quote:
I think you are remembering your history wrong here - Germany was only really divided up after the second world war (indeed the 'german problem' was solved by the ethnic cleansing of over 10m germans from eastern europe). |
I disagree with you.
Germany was really divided up after WWI. Leaving millions of Germans in other nations, often a very large and loud minority.
Frankly speaking, Germany really had grounds to demand those lands back.
However, their intention at the time was more than just unifying lands. They planned it as first steps of an all out conquest of Europe.
That's what I'm saying about the Pals currenly. They have grounds for gaining some lands and a homeland. But I want to make sure they will have no possible way to destroy the whole of Israel afterwarsd.
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lord of the mark
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FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Ned
18, 27, 6 million? How many Jews have to die before a German condemns those responsible? |
SOME Germans, notably the leadership of the Christian Social Union, have not only denounced the attacks, but have been supporting of Israel, and have denounced their own governments bias against Israel. The German govt, while it has not gone so far, has certainly gone further than the French govt, advocating that the EU ban the "political wing" of Hamas.
As for individuals posters here, they must speak for themselves.
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lord of the mark
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FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:31
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Abraham came from Ur. Send the Jews back to Iraq. And the Arabs too, since they are also decended from him.
And, since they are the decendents of the Martu, who invaded Sumer after the Elamites cast down the Sumerian Empire, we should really consider sending the Jews and Arabs to Kurdistan.
Meanwhile, let's send the Turks and Kurds back to Central Asia. |
1. Abraham from Ur - my, my guevera, you ARE a fundamentalist, arent you. In fact the name Abraham was found in excavations at Ugarit, in Syria, and the Hebrew language is close to Canaanite as far as we know it, and both are close to Ugaritic. Archaeologists have shown NO influx of Mesopotamian culture associated with the time of Abraham, or the time of the Jewish conquest of Canaan, nor have they found any influx of Egyptian culture. Such Mesopotamian culture as their is associated with longstanding Mesopotamian influence and conquest, and in the case of the Jews with exile. Epgytian influence is largely associated with the Canaanite cities. It seems much more likely that the ancient Israelites actually WERE canaanites, but with a different social structure and relgion, and that the "conquest" was more of a social revolution. Sorry to challenge your faith.
2. Martu ? where'd you get that? I have seen claims that Jews are genetically close to Kurds - but also that they are genetically close to Palestinians.
3. Turks are from central asia of course (though most inhabitants of Turkey are undoubtedly "turkized" locals. Kurds though? Linguistically they are Persians. If they came from outside, it would be from Ukrainian steppes, along with other Indo-European speakers. (though again probably most are assimilated locals)
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Ned
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of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:31
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quote:
Originally posted by lord of the mark
SOME Germans, notably the leadership of the Christian Social Union, have not only denounced the attacks, but have been supporting of Israel, and have denounced their own governments bias against Israel. The German govt, while it has not gone so far, has certainly gone further than the French govt, advocating that the EU ban the "political wing" of Hamas.
As for individuals posters here, they must speak for themselves. |
This information seems to confirm a worldwide trend on support for or opposition to Israel. The right supports Israel. The left opposes Isreal. This seems to be independent of country.
That seems to place Joe Lieberman on the right, which many fellow Democrats would strongly agree he is.
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06-10-2003 06:38
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