 |
| |
|
|
Ben Kenobi
|
 |
McGregornobi!
Oct 2002
time: 21:31
|
|
Pekka:
Out of everybody on this thread, I think you have the most constructive solution, to try and help these families. If people help the families, than there will be less desire for reprisals.
Condemn the attack, call the bombers cowardly terrorists who target civilians and children during a holy day of peace. Find out those responsible and punish them for their crime.
But do not step up the reprisals against the Palestinians, or use this as an excuse to step away from the peace plan. Many more will respect this restraint, and a show of forgiveness, than mere revenge.
I wish I could have more words for support of the Israelis, this attack sickens me, but it also speaks of desperation.
'Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called Sons of God.'
|
|
| |
|
|
|
el freako
|
 |
Bristol, European Union
Oct 1999
time: 05:31
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Pekka:
Out of everybody on this thread, I think you have the most constructive solution, to try and help these families. If people help the families, than there will be less desire for reprisals.
Condemn the attack, call the bombers cowardly terrorists who target civilians and children during a holy day of peace. Find out those responsible and punish them for their crime.
But do not step up the reprisals against the Palestinians, or use this as an excuse to step away from the peace plan. Many more will respect this restraint, and a show of forgiveness, than mere revenge.
I wish I could have more words for support of the Israelis, this attack sickens me, but it also speaks of desperation.
'Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called Sons of God.' |
Hear! Hear!
Every time I hear of an atrocity like this I despair of there ever being peace in Israel/Palestine, and every time Israel uses such acts to justify the occupation and colonization of the land I despair again.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
MichaeltheGreat
|
|
Apolyton Grand Executioner
|
 |
mooning the house that Ruth built.
Oct 1999
time: 21:31
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by el freako
Why is it anti-semetic to criticize Judaism's seeming lack of mercy?
|
"An eye for an eye" isn't lack of mercy, it's measured, proportionate response.
A village for an eye would be a lack of mercy.
And yes,
"But then again maybe i'm not taking the right tack - 'an eye for an eye' is from Jewish tradition, 'turn the other cheek' is from christian - maybe us westerners shouldn't expect good behaviour from a state that follows a religion that advocates such violence."
is anti-Semitic.
First, the Old Testament IS part of Christian doctrine. Second, you don't have to go far through western history to find leaders and nations finding rationalization in Christianity for atrocities many orders of magnitude worse and more extensive than anything the Israelis have actually or allegedly done, either directly or indirectly.
To selectively paint Judaism as a religion of "such violence" based on two isolated snippets of Jewish and Christian scripture, while ingnoring centuries of actual conduct, is grossly inaccurate, and pretty much narrows down the choices to ignorance or bias, or a combination.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Lord Merciless
|
|
The solution is easy: turn Syria into a wasteland, move Palis there.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Sirotnikov
|
 |
<--- Yes, It's a "kitty" in a boot.
Feb 2000
time: 07:31
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Agathon
And Israel never misses of course.  This is GWB Fuzzy Math.
|
Or just unpleasant facts that you would prefer to ignore 
quote:
 Of course you are the only people who believe that. |
It's not a question of belief.
You talked about a palestinian country that Israel is occupying.
A country is a self-governed, sovereign political unit. A 'palestinian' country would have to be predominantly "Palestinian" in demography or characterized by the Palestinian culture.
Bring me a proof of an existance of self-governed and sovereign political unit that is predomenantly or can be characterized as "Palestinian" between 700 AD and 2003 AD.
quote:
I'm talking about the ones that throw stones at tanks. |
Have you actually seen footage of the machine-guner on the tank shooting back?
quote:
Until people like you, Siro, realize that you will have to leave the West Bank to even begin to solve these problems, they will continue. |
This state will continue until people like you will start demanding "responsability" and "accountability" from everyone - including supposed underdogs.
It will continue until neo-commies will stop justifying and even glorifying the use of any means to justify the goal. It's sadly inherent to communism because of the common belief that the revolution will only follow a very bloody war.
It will continue until people like yourself will understand that intent is more important.
Peace will only come when people like yourself will realize that the current Palestinian demands are not peacefull, but are together meant to weaken and eventually destroy Israel.
Peace will only come when people like yourself will realize that you can not achieve real lasting peace with people who are at the same time using violence against you. First the violence stops, then negociations ensue.
quote:
That is of course, unless Sharon expels the Palestinians (ethnic cleansing as it's known), in which case Israelis won't be able to travel anywhere except the US without being spat on and attacked in the street. |
That is a great example of very good Palestinian propoganda.
But sadly, it may come to that, and ethnic cleansing of one or other nation would be the only solution.
Somehow, I fail to imagine that if the Palestinians do eventually manage by different means to ethnically cleanse the Jews, you will be greeting them instead.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Sirotnikov
|
|
<--- Yes, It's a "kitty" in a boot.
Feb 2000
time: 07:31
|
|
quote:
Every time I hear of an atrocity like this I despair of there ever being peace in Israel/Palestine, and every time Israel uses such acts to justify the occupation and colonization of the land I despair again. |
I reject both the terms and the logic of your arguments.
First, you are sadly compltely deluded as to the justification of different Israeli acts and policies.
If you are talking about settlements and such, then you should best know that there is no way in which terrorist attacks on Israel relate somehow to their existance or foundation.
If you are talking about security steps such as building a fence, enforcing blockades on movement inside Israeli controlled territorym, or army raids inside A territories to arrest terrorists and destroy laboratories, then you should be aware that those are different from the general settlement activity and bear no single purpose, logic or justification.
The settlement activity began as an Israeli step to counter the results of the genocidal attacks on Jews in 1920, 1929, during the 30s and during 1948, which drove out masses of Jews out of predominantly or partially Jewish towns which they have occupied for centuries and millenias.
The result was, that Jews that lived for ages in Jerusalem, Hebron, Jaffa and many other places next to indigenous or immigrating Arab population, were forced or threatened to leave their lands.
As a result, after the war of independance there were no Jews in the territories known as the West Bank, or Judea and Samaria. This was a new situation and countered what existed for ages before that.
As a result, when in 1967 Israel gained control of said areas, many Jews wished to return to the areas where they lived only 20 or 40 years ago, and eventually a large emigration and re-settlement process ensued.
Many of the lands in question were either existing or legally founded Jewish villages and towns during the Ottoman or Brittish Mandatorial rule.
I do not deny the claims the Palestinians make to some of the same lands for religious and national reasons, while I do have some disagreements with them.
To claim however, that the only legitimate claims to the area are Palestinian, and thus calling the Jewish claims to be "colonization" would be in my view a-historical, biased and sinister.
As far as the term "occupation" goes - I agree it can be applied to the condition of arabs who view themseleves as palestinians who lived in the disputed territories under Israeli administration or rule.
That is, between 1967 and 1993, the palestinians as people were indeed occupied, as they were indeed ruled by an authority which they rejected and wished for self-rule.
This term would also be correct to describe the Palestinian situation between 1947 and 1967 when they lived as second-class citizens under Jordanian occupation.
However, following the establishment of the Palestinian Autonomic Authority and until it's maximum spread in 2000, in areas A and B, where some 95% of Palestinians reside, it is impossible to say they were occupied, as both their terrotory and their daily life was seperate from Israeli control.
That is until in 2001, following a year long campaign of terrorist attacks, provoked, encited and in part financed by the current leadership of the Palestinian Authority, Israel began to reduce the territorial and administrative rights of the residents, and the IDF entered A and B areas. This was done as a result of the Palestinian leaderhip's unwillingness to even attempt to stop the terrorist attacks, and their clear steps in the other direction.
Obvoiusly any state that cares for the security of it's citizens, would eventually resort to the use of force against the territorial and administrative wholeness of what proved to be it's enemy.
|
|
| |
|
| |
|
|
|
panag
|
 |
MY WORDS ARE BACKED WITH BIO-CHEMICAL WEAPONS
Oct 2000
time: 07:31
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
quote:
Doesn't change the fact that you learnt everything you know of it, from people that apparently bought into nazi propoganda. |
Funny... because Israel has seemingly bought into Nazi propaganda... look, they are building a wall around Palestine, can we say 'ghetto' anyone?  |
seen the wall's in egypt , spanish marocco , syria , jordan , pakistan , etc , ..... 
then they must have bought in to nazi propaganda also hé , .....
|
|
| |
|
|
|
el freako
|
|
Bristol, European Union
Oct 1999
time: 05:31
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Sirotnikov
...which drove out masses of Jews out of predominantly or partially Jewish towns which they have occupied for centuries and millenias.
|
How is this different from the mass exodus of Palestinians from Israel (or Israeli occupied areas) after 1948 & 1967?
Or the forced clearing of Palestininan villages now?
quote:
Originally posted by Sirotnikov
As a result, when in 1967 Israel gained control of said areas, many Jews wished to return to the areas where they lived only 20 or 40 years ago, and eventually a large emigration and re-settlement process ensued.
|
Two questions for you:
1. Are the majority of people living in the settlements those who left in 1948 (or those decended from them) or are they indeed recent immigrants from Russia etc?
2. By your above logic I assume you would also be in favour of the 'right of return' of Palestinians in any future peace deal?
quote:
Originally posted by Sirotnikov
To claim however, that the only legitimate claims to the area are Palestinian, and thus calling the Jewish claims to be "colonization" would be in my view a-historical, biased and sinister. |
Again if the majority of settlers are those who left those area's (or decended from them) then you are correct - if not then you are being sinister by using an untrue argument to justify colonization.
Indeed they would harken back to the Nazi claim of 'reuniting' germans in their Lebansraum.
As far as the term "occupation" goes - I agree it can be applied to the condition of arabs who view themseleves as palestinians who lived in the disputed territories under Israeli administration or rule.
quote:
Originally posted by Sirotnikov
However, following the establishment of the Palestinian Autonomic Authority and until it's maximum spread in 2000, in areas A and B, where some 95% of Palestinians reside, it is impossible to say they were occupied, as both their terrotory and their daily life was seperate from Israeli control.
|
Semantics, maybe not 'colonized' but certainly 'vassalized' wouldn't you agree?
They were certainly not independent were they?
Last edited by el freako on 06-10-2003 at 00:29
|
|
| |
|
|
|
panag
|
|
MY WORDS ARE BACKED WITH BIO-CHEMICAL WEAPONS
Oct 2000
time: 07:31
|
|
Bombed Restaurant Was Jewish-Arab Symbol
Sat Oct 4, 4:18 PM ET
By PETER ENAV, Associated Press Writer
HAIFA, Israel - The bustling seaside Maxim restaurant is a mirror of one of Israel's few mixed Arab-Jewish cities. Jewish pro soccer players hang out here. Many of the diners are Arabs. For four decades the business has been owned by two families — one Arab, one Jewish , .....
This port city, however, has also been a repeated target for Palestinian suicide bombers, perhaps because the attackers are better able to blend in. And on Saturday, Maxim became the latest site to be hit.
In the afternoon, a Palestinian woman got past a guard at the door — by shooting him, according to some reports — and detonated a load of explosives. The blast thundered along the beach and up along the foothills of the seaside Carmel mountains.
The bomber, 27-year-old Hanadi Jaradat, was sent by the Islamic Jihad group, which has dispatched several other women to bomb Israeli targets. Her brother and a cousin, a member of Islamic Jihad, were killed in an Israeli army raid in June. Jaradat, a graduate from law school, was serving an apprenticeship in a law office.
Jaradat killed 19 bystanders Saturday, including four Arabs and four children.
The blast blew out windows and blackened parts of the restaurant. Light fixtures and electric wires dangled, ripped from the shredded ceiling. Beneath a fog of smoke, blood and bits of broken plates dotted the floor. A woman's severed head, apparently that of the bomber, lay on the floor. Her black hair was tied back in a ponytail.
On the steps outside, the security guard lay face down, his shaved head and white T-shirt streaked with blood. White-suited forensics specialists sifted through debris. It wasn't clear if the bomber shot him. Pock-marked glass doors behind him might have been sprayed with bits of shrapnel from the explosive, or perhaps bullets.
Nir Muli, the grandson of the restaurant's Jewish owner, said his family founded the business together with an Arab family 40 years ago. "This restaurant was a symbol of coexistence," he said. "We never thought that this would happen to us."
About a fifth of Israel's 6.6 million people are Arabs, a minority made up of those Arabs who were not forced out or did not flee the war surrounding Israel's 1948 creation. They have strong family ties with Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza but enjoy Israeli citizenship.
With Israelis and Palestinians at battle, Israel's Arab minority is at times awkwardly in the middle. Few Israeli Arabs have taken part in the fight, though views have hardened toward Israel, especially after suffering years of discrimination.
Haifa is home to 223,000 Jews and 47,000 Arabs. They mingle together in shops and crowd into buses together. In a reflection of the city's Arab presence, two mosque minarets rise into the sky, visible on the hillside behind the shattered restaurant.
In three years of fighting, six suicide bombers have struck Haifa, killing 74 people.
At Haifa's Rambam Hospital distraught Arabs and Jews filled a narrow corridor waiting for information about injured relatives and friends who worked at the restaurant.
One of them, an Arab woman named Odet Najar, 28, waited for news about her cousin, Sharbe Matar, 23, a waiter. "Everybody was together there, Jews and Arabs; we went to the restaurant a lot," she said, in fluent Hebrew.
It was where the Maccabi Haifa soccer team hung out before games, and several team officials, including the coach, were wounded.
"The restaurant is like a second home for Maccabi Haifa. It's a very sad day for the city of Haifa," player Alon Harazi said. One of the team's stars is Walid Badir, an Arab.
The attack came on the Jewish Sabbath and just two days before Yom Kippur, or the Day of Atonement, the holiest day on the Jewish calendar.
Witnesses described a horrible scene. A man driving past, who gave only his first name, Navon, said he ran inside to try to help carry out the wounded, but found that most seemed to be already dead.
"To tell you the truth, there were not many people to take out ... just a lot of people strewn on the ground. There was nothing to do, no way to help them," he said.
hi ,
Druze , christian-arab , muslim and Jews where blown to pieces , ......
but off course thats not important to some , .....
have a nice day
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Sirotnikov
|
|
<--- Yes, It's a "kitty" in a boot.
Feb 2000
time: 07:31
|
|
quote:
How is this different from the mass exodus of Palestinians from Israel (or Israeli occupied areas) after 1948 & 1967?
Or the forced clearing of Palestininan villages now? |
EDIT: What forced clearing of villages now?
It's different into two manners.
1. The Jewish leadership never acitevely propogated the jews to leave their homes with the promise of a later return when the battles are over.
2. It came first (1920, 1929...)
Otherwise it's similar.
quote:
Two questions for you:
1. Are the majority of people living in the settlements those who left in 1948 (or those decended from them) or are they indeed recent immigrants from Russia etc?
2. By your above logic I assume you would also be in favour of the 'right of return' of Palestinians in any future peace deal? |
1. I don't know that exactly now, and I don't think it matters. The heart of the matter that it was a legitimate jewish town.
2. No, not into Israeli territory. If we have destroyed some village not far from the 67 line, it's ok with me if we give them that area and they resettle it, but it'll be Palestinian from now on, and will have a border around it.
quote:
Again if the majority of settlers are those who left those area's (or decended from them) then you are correct - if not then you are being sinister by using an untrue argument to justify colonization. |
Am I to think that you also follow that scrutiny for the Palestinian side, and demand every returning Palestinian to go exactly to the site where his grand parent used to live?
Again, the point is that Jewish towns existed there. Once Israel got the territory back, it decided to re-settle some of those, and later created more, while half of the people thought we'll eventually leave and the other half thought we'll stay for good.
This is infact some sort of R&R policy which we have managed to fulfil. Notice that the Palestinians also fulfilled theirs to some extent, as there was for a long time (until recently) legal and illegal Palestinian emigration into Israel for permanent residence and sometimes citizenship status.
We've just succeeded better.
I'm against any future Right of Return for any of the sides. That would mean no Palestinians returning to Israel anymore, and no new Israeli settlements.
If the Palestinians that emigrated back into Israel after 1948 are willing to leave to their own country, I suspect would support the uprooting of all settlements.
Currently I support the uprooting of some (most), only as part of a final deal. No free gifts. If we get no deal, no uprooting should take place.
quote:
Indeed they would harken back to the Nazi claim of 'reuniting' germans in their Lebansraum. |
They had a good claim. Ripping up portions of Germany and giving it to other countries was an utterly idiotic idea. Peoples with strong nationalistic feelings should be kept in one country.
If they spread among some, they begin to want to join their homeland, and their homeland is more than willing to get more territory.
I'm sure that some time after Palestine is established, Israel with it's 1.3 Million Israeli Arabs, most of whom are palestinians, will have a problem. As will Jordan with it's 80% Palestinian population.
quote:
As far as the term "occupation" goes - I agree it can be applied to the condition of arabs who view themseleves as palestinians who lived in the disputed territories under Israeli administration or rule. |
yay arty:
|
|
| |
All times are GMT. The time now is 05:31.
Apolyton Time is 00:31. |
top of page
|
| archivepost |
|
Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
|
HTML code is ON
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
|
|
|
|
|
|
05-10-2003 06:29
You are a good man, Ben. Extremists are only created by violence, while moderates arise from kindness.
|