07-10-2003 02:29									#61
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Fred Phelps is a severely misguided soul in deep need of our prayers.

	07-10-2003 02:33									#62
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amen, Shi

	07-10-2003 02:43									#63
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He's in need of a swift kick up the arse.

	07-10-2003 02:58									#64
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He, and his whole family, are in need of a meeting with my attitude adjustment stick.

	07-10-2003 03:19									#65
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quote: You can't define somone out of Christianity to suit your purposes.

Agreed. I still don't see any examples provided by Che, et al of any Christians involved in the clinic bombings. Christians do not agree with abortions, but neither do they sanction violence against clinics as a means to stop them.

As for Phelps, he's on his own, if his church has asked him to leave. The idea is that Phelps, through disconnection from the Baptists will seek to return, and will realise that he is in opposition to the teaching of the church. Until then, all we can do is what Shi posted, is to pray for him.

	07-10-2003 03:27									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi I still don't see any examples provided by Che, et al of any Christians involved in the clinic bombings.

If they weren't perpetrated by Christians than who? Jews? Moslems? Atheists? The only people in these extremist organizations are Christians (albeit comeplete loony whackjobs).

	07-10-2003 03:30									#67
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I'm not sure if being a Christian is a pre-requisite for believing that abortion is murder.

	07-10-2003 03:31									#68
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Sometimes it is useful to radicalize your opponents so as to alienate them from the mainstream public (A great many DL's attempt to do this).

My point? This Phelps fellow is obviously an undercover homosexual.

	07-10-2003 03:34									#69
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quote: Originally posted by FrustratedPoet I'm not sure if being a Christian is a pre-requisite for believing that abortion is murder.

It's not, but in the U.S. the extemists are overwhelimingly Christians. Moslems and some Jews also make the case that abortion is wrong.

	07-10-2003 03:39									#70
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quote: (albeit comeplete loony whackjobs).

Che,
There you go. Loony whackjobs blow up clinics.

The Christian churches do not teach that the way to stop abortion is to blow up clinics.

Rather, we favour peaceful protests as a means of social change, on the model of Dr. MLK.

	07-10-2003 03:41									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Che, There you go. Loony whackjobs blow up clinics.

Yes, but they are Christian looney whackjobs. There are a handful of pastors out there who teach that violence is acceptable to save others *hint* *hint* to certain unstable members of their congregations.

	07-10-2003 04:01									#72
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*writes down another reason why I should not go to the US*

	07-10-2003 04:09									#73
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btw, I stopped thinking that humans actually know ANYTHING about God, Jesus, etc. Because they clearly do not and cannot.

Infact, it has come to my attention, that it would be required of you to be omnicient in order to understand God at all; considering this is impossible, the best advice anyone can give you is: Keep things simple, be gentle and patient, do not judge, do not rule, but ultimately, be humble.

But no, we have thousands of pasters who say "But Gold told me to do this and that and this" "God says its OK" "God told me that being Gay is a sin" blah blah. This is why I stopped going to church, all they do is tell you what THEY think that God is about.

	07-10-2003 04:11									#74
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quote: There are a handful of pastors out there who teach that violence is acceptable to save others *hint* *hint* to certain unstable members of their congregations.

Names would be helpful, of these churches that teach this sort of thing.

	07-10-2003 04:12									#75
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Once he came to my campus to "preach" during a football game... sad...

	07-10-2003 04:14									#76
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quote: In fact, it has come to my attention, that it would be required of you to be omnicient in order to understand God at all;

Snoopy:

You would require omniscience to understand God completely.

You do not require omniscience to understand some of God.

quote: all they do is tell you what THEY think that God is about.

What does the Bible teach? That ought to clear some disagreements.

	07-10-2003 06:20									#77
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Ben, I was born in 1979, what happened before then, is kind of oblivious to me, sure I can read up about history and listen to those who lived before me, but all in all, none of us REALLY know what has happened, and what has happened behind closed doors.

To be honest, to trust the bible, is a risky thing to hold your life to, especially if you're gonna be fanatical about it. I do agree personally with a lot of which the bible says, but that does not mean that God actually said any of it. Which is why I also believe the other thing people should have is faith, and not to complicate faith, just have faith coupled with humbleness. At the same time, I do believe that analyzing what you don't understand is a harmless thing, but being fanatical about it with a closed mind is dangerous and stupid.

	07-10-2003 06:46									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Names would be helpful, of these churches that teach this sort of thing.

For example, the priest who was just condemned to death in Florida for killing a doctor.

	07-10-2003 06:50									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Agreed. I still don't see any examples provided by Che, et al of any Christians involved in the clinic bombings. Christians do not agree with abortions, but neither do they sanction violence against clinics as a means to stop them.

Paul Hill, who the state of Florida recently sent to meet his maker.

In El Cajon, California, there was a fairly notorious "Baptist" "church" where the pastor and several members were convicted of bombings, attempted bombings and conspiracy back in the 90's.

They went on for a few years before getting caught and were involved in a civil action as a result of one of their "right to life" protests where they accosted a pregnant woman on the street, physically restrained her, shouted at her, etc., and were so full of their self-righteous selves they didn't bother to consider there were several Ob-Gyn's as well as other doctors in the medical building they were picketing. The woman worked close by her doctors office, and had some sort of problem for which she was trying to get emergency treatment to avoid a miscarriage.

All in all, their range of activities went from picketing to active harassment to stalking MDs at their homes to threats of violence to conspiracy and bombing. Their position was that God sanctioned their actions because they were doing it to save babies.

Then there was the sniper in Buffalo, NY...

I'm sure the list goes on.

I've heard a number of "Christians" of several denominations express sympathy for many illegal, intimidating or violent tactics against abortion providers and clinics, and some even against judges and legislators. Generally, for most people self-justification can always be rationalized.

	07-10-2003 08:38									#80
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quote: I do agree personally with a lot of which the bible says, but that does not mean that God actually said any of it.

snoopy:

I guess my question is why do you accept parts of the Bible as true? What makes them seem right over the rest?

Secondly, why only personally? Do you believe that what the bible teaches ought to apply to everyone?

I think that many problems come when people do not read the bible, in that they get the wrong idea of what God wants, of what he desires.

quote: just have faith coupled with humbleness.

I agree. Many errors would be avoided if everyone just kept this in mind.

	07-10-2003 08:44									#81
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MtG:

quote: I've heard a number of "Christians" of several denominations express sympathy for many illegal, intimidating or violent tactics against abortion providers and clinics, and some even against judges and legislators. Generally, for most people self-justification can always be rationalized.

Every prolife organisation that I know of denounced Kopp's actions after he confessed to shooting Dr. Slepian. Nothing will ever be accomplished by violence. Violent acts not only do not help, but they greatly hinder the peaceful folks.

I'm curious in how you use the word 'intimidate', since the word can be construed in many ways. Would you consider graphic signs to be 'intimidating?'

I'm going to specifically address each of your examples, though I must confess that I have never heard of that church before.

	07-10-2003 08:54									#82
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quote: What does the Bible teach? That ought to clear some disagreements.

Do you have evidence the Bible was "authored" by God?

	07-10-2003 09:04									#83
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Maybe we can just stick with Kopp, since he is probably the most difficult to explain. I confess that Kopp scares me the most, not so much in his actions, but in his arguments. They seem very seductive when peaceful avenues seem blocked.

http://www.prolifeaction.org/actionnews/200212/kopp.htm

WRT to the issue at hand:

"Jim talked about his conversion to Catholicism and his consideration of the priesthood. He told me he had dedicated himself to the abortion struggle as a lifelong commitment. I could identify with that since I had made the same commitment myself right after the infamous Roe v. Wade ruling on January 22, 1973.

I was impressed with Jim's devotion to the Church and his spiritual approach to the fight against abortion. I would have described Jim Kopp as a man of peace and action."

I don't know what drove Kopp to change his mind and his tactics. I've never met the man. But despite all the outward displays and rituals of holiness, there was something fundamentally wrong.

This is why all Christians have to watch themselves carefully, to encourage and correct one another to make sure that we do not stray from the path.

Christians are even warned that there will be many who are clothed like sheep, though inwardly they are ferocious wolves. The only clue we are given for the identity is to gage each person by their fruits.

Che, this is the main reason why Christians are constantly reminded not to trust in each other, but in God, for even the best of us fall short.

I encourage everyone to read the article, since it explains why peace is always superior to violence, even if violence appears more effective in the short term.

	07-10-2003 09:09									#84
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quote: Do you have evidence the Bible was "authored" by God?

I would argue that there are events in the bible that contain details only God would know.

	07-10-2003 13:46									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Rather, we favour peaceful protests as a means of social change, on the model of Dr. MLK.

lol

Surely the Christian model for peaceful protest to achieve social change is based on the example of ... erm ... y'know ... that guy with the beard .... JESUS. :-D

	07-10-2003 18:20									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Che, this is the main reason why Christians are constantly reminded not to trust in each other, but in God, for even the best of us fall short.

As a former Christian of many years, I have to say I find the attitude of many Christians patronizing. Atheists don't appear in a vacuume, fully formed and clothed, but, by and large, are former members of the dominant religion of their culture.

Just so you know, I was baptized and confirmed when I was a preteen, served as an altar boy, in the choir, did chores around the church, and gave serious consideration to going to seminary and becoming a priest in the Episcopal Church. The fact that I reject theism in no way means I don't understand what Christianity is.

Even then, other Christians scared the bejeezuz outta me. I didn't agree with them, but that didn't mean that I ever thoght they weren't Christians. I find your lot to be the most arrogant of all, deciding for yourselves who is truely Christian and who is not.

	07-10-2003 21:18									#87
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it's hard to have faith when humans have so many failings.

	08-10-2003 01:20									#88
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FP:



Dr. King gets a bit more specific, but the roots of non-violent direct action comes from the principles of Christ.

che:

quote: The fact that I reject theism in no way means I don't understand what Christianity is.

And where do I say that you don't understand?

quote: I find your lot to be the most arrogant of all, deciding for yourselves who is truely Christian and who is not.

Kopp, if he had confessed in Christ, is still a Christian. I don't presume to doubt his conversion. Same with you if you were baptised and confirmed.

What I do say is that he is no longer behaving as a Christian ought to, and the article goes into greater detail. This is why his betrayal hurts other Christians deeply.

	08-10-2003 17:05									#89
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the difference here between christians and xtians can be analogized to how chris rock pointed out the differences between black people and n*.

(sigh) i hate to say this, but sometimes it does feel as if christianity is under attack by society at large--what's worse is that, like the fundamentalists and extremists on our side who attack islam for only its worst adherents, most of those against christianity who tar it and insult it do so because of the worst adherents to christianity.

it only takes a few bad apples to make the rest of us look bad. we can't kick 'em out, because we are not to judge them; we can't leave, because we believe in god--supposedly, the same one they do.

it's a shame.

	08-10-2003 18:32									#90
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If Christianity is under attack by society at large, Christians have only themselves to blame, since they constitute the vast majority of society. Athiests, Jews, Moslems, Hindus, and all other religions scarecly add up to 20% of the U.S. population, so it's gotta be Christians attacking other Christians . . . which is the way its been for 2,000 years, so I don't see why we shoud be surprised.