09-10-2003 08:57									#121
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quote: So what is says in the bible is secondary to the interpretation of the day, or of the individual, and the same is true for all holy texts.

Gepap:

No. There are stringent limits to interpretation. Anyone's interpretation ought to have precedents, in that other people in the church have come to similar conclusions looking at the material.

This is one of the reasons why Christians ought not to rely upon their own interpretation, but in the counsel of others they may be more sure of the text.

I have found that reading the bible, I will come across an ambiguous passage. What I will do is talk to some good friends of mine who are knowledgeable and see what they have to say.

Sometimes there is really not absolute interpretation, the source of many legitimate differences between denominations. An example close to home is the passage concerning head coverings. One church may interpret the passage literally, that women ought to wear head coverings, while another would emphasise the idea of Christian modesty in dress can be expressed without necessarily wearing headscarves.

	09-10-2003 09:03									#122
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quote: God had the Israelites slaughter his enemies before..for all Christ said, that does not erase thew words of the Father.

Gepap:

Cite scripture and verse as evidence, and then I will reply since this topic will take some time to go over.

quote: Then let him come down and say what he means every so often.

He already has.

quote: Jesus was dead before Christianity begun, and Paul wrote about how to be a good slave...the Church and modern Christianity is as much a product of thousands of scholars scribb;ling from 60 ad and beyond than just Jesus.

Fine. Find a copy of the Septuagint and then cite differences between passages in the Septuagint and the NIV.

There are few changes in the Bible over time, the words and teachings have remained the same. Paul did not change Christianity, though as an Apostle, like all the others, added more specific details.

Finally, Jesus is not dead, he is risen.

quote: Reasons can't be true.

Do you believe in any form of objective truth, Gepap?

	09-10-2003 09:26									#123
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quote: While we hear Christians are being persecuted, Christians are putting Rastafarians and some Indians in jail for practicing their religions.

Berz:

Evidence would greatly assist your argument.

quote: Maybe that's why the OT punishment for fornication was marriage, not stoning as was the case for adultery (clearly the OT made a distinction).

Well, do you agree that we ought to follow the OT method of punishments, or would you prefer Christ?

quote: But you have no moral commitment to a future wife, just the commitment you make when you marry her.

Sin does not happen just between you and other people. Sin also occurs between you and God. God clearly describes fornication as sexual sin, therefore the object of sin would be God.

quote: Btw, there's another group of people being persecuted by "Christians" - prostitutes and their customers.

Matthew 21:32

Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you. For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did.

	09-10-2003 16:29									#124
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quote: Ah yes, those "fake" Christians, as opposed to you "true" Christians. Sounds like a 2,000-year old argument to me (Irenaeus or Simon Magus anyone?) You people are so sectarian you make us Trotskyists look like ametuers.

is it so hard to believe that the christians do not all act and think as one solid bloc?
hell, the baptists don't think we catholics are really christian because we supposedly worship mary and the saints.

and ben: where do we draw the line for the church? our nicene creed says it's one holy catholic (emphasis on the lack of capitalization) and apostolic church; we accept one baptism for the forgiveness of sins, no matter who does it, as long as it's in the name of god...
would this then make phelps a member of our church? sure, then we can expel him, we can excommunicate him.
but he most likely doesn't think himself part of our church.

in all truth, it's a lot easier to go through the motions than to actually walk the walk.

	09-10-2003 17:58									#125
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Gepap: Cite scripture and verse as evidence, and then I will reply since this topic will take some time to go over.

Sorry, I won't. Don't care to. Now, if you whish to make the statement that at no time God calls for the destruction of other by the Israelites or gives a green light to it, fine, say it, but remember the notion of bearing false witness.

quote: He already has.

You were told he did, and belived it: that's why its called faith. does not make it true though.

quote: There are few changes in the Bible over time, the words and teachings have remained the same. Paul did not change Christianity, though as an Apostle, like all the others, added more specific details. Finally, Jesus is not dead, he is risen.

If this were true, there would be one christian sect, period, and it's interpretation of the word of God would rarely change. That is the simple rub: explain to me why there is more than one Christian sect....are so many people so clueless?

Oh, and again, you believe Jesus rose...doesn't make it true.

quote: Do you believe in any form of objective truth, Gepap?

Yes, you exist, I exist, the earth is a planet revolving in an elliptical orbit around a star , so forth and so on. Those are truths which we can prove, which are self-evident. There is no moral truth though, nor any "reason" that is objectively true. Man exists in a real world, but makes its meaning up. To say "Reason has truth" is the same as saying Red is less evil than blue. I am sure you can make up a reason why: but it is still a creation of your mind, art as it where, and thus artificial.

	09-10-2003 18:07									#126
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i can't prove you exist. there's no gepap on record at the university.

	09-10-2003 18:10									#127
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quote: Those are truths which we can prove, which are self-evident.

If you have to prove them, then they aren't self-evident.

	09-10-2003 23:53									#128
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quote: would this then make phelps a member of our church? sure, then we can expel him, we can excommunicate him, but he most likely doesn't think himself part of our church.

QCubed:

I am not a member of the Catholic church, though I be a member in good standing of the Mennonite church. Though we be one in spirit, the church has not yet entered into full unity of all the Christian brethren.

That given, the same argument that applies to me, applies to Phelps. Phelps still counts as a Christian, though he is still outside the Catholic church. He is also outside of his own Baptist church, because they have kicked him out.

	10-10-2003 00:03									#129
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quote: Sorry, I won't. Don't care to. Now, if you whish to make the statement that at no time God calls for the destruction of other by the Israelites or gives a green light to it, fine, say it, but remember the notion of bearing false witness.

Gepap:

Since you refuse to provide evidence for your claim.

BAM

I am willing to discuss this point, but it will take time for me to explain the argument. I'm not going to bother if you don't care about your point enough to properly defend.

I'm not asking for the whole text, just the cite. It saves me time and is a courtesy, since I ought to know which passage you interpret in this fashion.

quote: You were told he did, and belived it: that's why its called faith. does not make it true though.

No, I read about it in the Bible and believed. Others told me and at first I was incredulous.

quote: If this were true, there would be one christian sect, period, and it's interpretation of the word of God would rarely change. That is the simple rub: explain to me why there is more than one Christian sect....are so many people so clueless?

:sigh:

Read my post on Biblical interpretation please. I anticipate this question in my example of headscarves.

quote: I am sure you can make up a reason why: but it is still a creation of your mind, art as it where, and thus artificial.

How then do you know that you exist, and are not inside a Matrix?

	10-10-2003 01:23									#130
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Ben -

quote: Evidence would greatly assist your argument.

Rastafarians use pot as part of their religion, and many Indians use peyote. A few states won't jail Indians for using peyote, but most do. And pot...well...you know it's illegal...

quote: Well, do you agree that we ought to follow the OT method of punishments, or would you prefer Christ?

Neither, the OT is so punitive as to be immoral. And most "Christians" violate Jesus' teachings regarding the laws.
For example, Jesus never said "cage the pot smokers". Jesus told people to forgive wrong-doers and turn the other cheek.
If this was what Christians practiced, we wouldn't have laws and criminal courts.

quote: Sin does not happen just between you and other people. Sin also occurs between you and God. God clearly describes fornication as sexual sin, therefore the object of sin would be God.

No, the Bible describes fornication as sin, not God. And the OT punishment was marriage, not death as was the case for adultery - hence the distinction.

quote: Matthew 21:32 Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you. For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did.

Ben, why do you laugh? Prostitution is illegal. Did Jesus tell his followers to punish prostitutes? No... So upon what basis do "Christians" cage prostitutes? The passage you took from the Bible in no way contradicts what I said...

	10-10-2003 04:19									#131
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quote: Neither, the OT is so punitive as to be immoral. And most "Christians" violate Jesus' teachings regarding the laws. For example, Jesus never said "cage the pot smokers". Jesus told people to forgive wrong-doers and turn the other cheek. If this was what Christians practiced, we wouldn't have laws and criminal courts.

Yes, God's a Libertarian. I would therefore argue that we shouldn't have moral laws and so forth. Let them sin and debauch themselves; we have no right to violate their present lives if that is all they want and if, when they are allowed a broader view of the temporary life they decide to hang onto Jesus then.... I am vindicated completely.

I do not seek this Ideal though, Idealism is silly and can only lead to cynicism, neither of which is productive.

quote: No, the Bible describes fornication as sin, not God. And the OT punishment was marriage, not death as was the case for adultery - hence the distinction.

Then fornication with multiple partners is adultery, yes? Hence prostitution's immorality.

	10-10-2003 12:53									#132
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quote: Yes, God's a Libertarian. I would therefore argue that we shouldn't have moral laws and so forth. Let them sin and debauch themselves; we have no right to violate their present lives if that is all they want and if, when they are allowed a broader view of the temporary life they decide to hang onto Jesus then.... I am vindicated completely.

God may or may not be a libertarian (I would argue God is), but to claim that God authored the Bible requires actual evidence. Furthermore, just how do you propose these "moral" laws be enforced? By first stealing money by threatening people with violence ("taxes") to pay cops and courts? There's the irony with what these "moralists" advocate, they ignore the actions they must take to enforce their "morality". And being a libertarian doesn't mean you can't advise others on what you perceive to be moral behavior, if you read the NT you'll see Jesus didn't tell his followers to go around caging "sinners", just offer advise...

quote: I do not seek this Ideal though, Idealism is silly and can only lead to cynicism, neither of which is productive.

Caging millions of people for personal behavior in the name of Jesus is productive? "I never knew you". Find that one in the NT and consider who Jesus was addressing...

quote: Then fornication with multiple partners is adultery, yes?

Fornication is sex, adultery is cheating on a spouse.

quote: Hence prostitution's immorality.

Why don't you look the words up in a dictionary, I'm having no impact on you.