08-10-2003 18:42									#91
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christians may be the vast majority--but really, it almost seems as if most of us are christians in name only.

i'll admit that i often fall into that category, but i try not to.

	08-10-2003 23:55									#92
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara If Christianity is under attack by society at large, Christians have only themselves to blame, since they constitute the vast majority of society. Athiests, Jews, Moslems, Hindus, and all other religions scarecly add up to 20% of the U.S. population, so it's gotta be Christians attacking other Christians . . . which is the way its been for 2,000 years, so I don't see why we shoud be surprised.

Yes, but it's Christians opressing themselves (As Q says many are only Christian in name, who don't really go to church and if they do keep their 'church' seperate from their life) becvause of our vast majority.

Another note: David Limbaugh has a book out titled 'Persecution' I reccomend it (I haven't actually gotten abround to reading it, but D. L. tends to be a decent political writer) It is about Liberals (America hating Americans, Christianity hating Christians) have persecuted Christianity.

	09-10-2003 01:27									#93
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Back to Phelps for a sec.

Below is a photo from one of his rallies. If your sense of irony is up to this, take a look at the guy on the left, with the blue cap.

Note shirt. Note logo on shirt. Hmmmm....

(From the blog Sisyphus Shrugged)

Edit: Okay, okay, try this:Phelps

	09-10-2003 01:52									#94
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quote: Originally posted by SKILORD (As Q says many are only Christian in name, who don't really go to church and if they do keep their 'church' seperate from their life)

Ah yes, those "fake" Christians, as opposed to you "true" Christians. Sounds like a 2,000-year old argument to me (Irenaeus or Simon Magus anyone?) You people are so sectarian you make us Trotskyists look like ametuers.

	09-10-2003 02:49									#95
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Phelps better hope I never run into him...

	09-10-2003 03:17									#96
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Why? Would you try and touch his ass?

	09-10-2003 03:23									#97
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quote: we can't kick 'em out, because we are not to judge them;

QCubed:

We are not to judge those outside the church, but we do have forms of discipline for those who are inside the church.

Here's what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 5:9-12

"I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people-- not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.

What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."

	09-10-2003 03:27									#98
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Che:

quote: If Christianity is under attack by society at large, Christians have only themselves to blame, since they constitute the vast majority of society. Athiests, Jews, Moslems, Hindus, and all other religions scarecly add up to 20% of the U.S. population, so it's gotta be Christians attacking other Christians . . . which is the way its been for 2,000 years, so I don't see why we shoud be surprised.

Christians make up the majority of the population? Do you have any examples of Christians persecuting other Christians?

I'll admit there have been times in the past, my own church used to be persecuted by the other Christians for their disagreements. But then the Catholic church also sold indulgences, a practice they have ceased.

Let us hold the church accountable for their actions today.

	09-10-2003 03:36									#99
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quote: You people are so sectarian you make us Trotskyists look like ametuers.

quote: (As Q says many are only Christian in name, who don't really go to church and if they do keep their 'church' seperate from their life)

Che, will you agree with me that a sincere Communist will try to apply the ideals of communism to their life? Why would you expect something different from Christians?

The key is not to seperate, the commitment of faith apart from the life in Christ, the two will come together. This is the whole rationale behind Paul's exhortations, to encourage people to leave behind their old life and to start with the new.

In Ephesians: 4:22-25

"You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; to be made new in the attitude of your minds; and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.

Therefore each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to his neighbor, for we are all members of one body."

	09-10-2003 03:40									#100
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quote: Do you have any examples of Christians persecuting other Christians?

Are you kidding?

Just for starters, I'd like to point you in the direction of the Protestants and Catholics knee-capping the ever-loving **** out of each other in Northern Ireland for the past generation or two.

	09-10-2003 05:58									#101
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Ah yes, those "fake" Christians, as opposed to you "true" Christians. Sounds like a 2,000-year old argument to me (Irenaeus or Simon Magus anyone?) You people are so sectarian you make us Trotskyists look like ametuers.

Firstly: You are a trotskyist only because Stalin failed, were Stalin the exiled man buried in an unnamed Mexican grave and Trotsky the mass murdurer (Or better yet the failure who was overcome by the forces that Stalin vindictively demolished) You would be a Stalinist.

Secondly: I do not question anyone's faith, I only say that it is evident that there are officials in government who overcompensate for Christianity being dominant. I don't believe it is the government's job to compensate for such things. I believe in freedom of religion, I believe that we should let kids pray in school, let kids influence other kids, let teachers influence kids, but don't use government funds to attack or endorse religion. Do you understand what I'm saying, Trotskyte?

	09-10-2003 06:06									#102
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quote: Just for starters, I'd like to point you in the direction of the Protestants and Catholics knee-capping the ever-loving **** out of each other in Northern Ireland for the past generation or two.

Actually, that's a worse point than violence sanctioned by the religious authorities, as was the case during the Counter-Reformation, against other Christians.

Secondly, that's not in the US. Che's limited himself to the US, blaming ALL the persecution of Christians coming from other Christians.

There's actually not much US persecution, most persecution of Christians comes from other countries, particularly Muslims, and in China.

	09-10-2003 06:06									#103
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In support of what Kenobi said:

A homosexual, since homosexual marriage is illegal in America (I don't think it should be, but I am not arguing in an Ideal, Libertarian world, I am arguing in the present realm), is dependant upon fornication to to do his homosexual thing. A person who is completely unrepentant and goes to communion (confession in some cases) with the expressed desire of partaking in sin that evening, or the evening after, is without faith, is without sanctity, is without godliness. This goes for heterosexual fornicators too, and theives, and liars, and those posessed by covetousness, etc. It is cheap grace to these people and I have never heard a churche endorse cheap grace, there are references in scripture I could give you, but I have to write a character sketch on Dorian Gray.

I don't [EDIT: DO NOT] question their faith as individuals, we are all sinners and I don't know if they are truely repentant or not, In cases where they are not though, my argument stands.

	09-10-2003 06:15									#104
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Skilord:

quote: A homosexual, since homosexual marriage is illegal in America (I don't think it should be, but I am not arguing in an Ideal, Libertarian world, I am arguing in the present realm), is dependant upon fornication to to do his homosexual thing.

No difference I'm afraid, between the one and the other.

Romans 3:10

As it is written:

"There is no one righteous, not even one;"

Just a little futher down, if you'll permit a digression.

Romans 3:22-24

This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

	09-10-2003 06:23									#105
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If any male on poly ever sees him, they must slap his ass. We should make a pact.

	09-10-2003 06:26									#106
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Yes, but repentance is prerequisite to grace. One who is unrepentant of his sins would not ask forgiveness of those sins and ergo would lack forgiveness of those sins.

God's grace is indeed a free gift but not one imposed upon us. There is no point in being a Christian if grace requires no repentance, if we need not even ask forgiveness, need not even attempt to be a better likeness of Christ then why have I given up the parties and so forth which I once so actively pursued?

I depend on God to grant me forgiveness, not to impose forgiveness upon me.

	09-10-2003 06:29									#107
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quote: David Limbaugh has a book out titled 'Persecution' I reccomend it (I haven't actually gotten abround to reading it

Yeah, I'll read a book you recommend but haven't read.

No offense to you, but Limbaugh and O'Reilly (who was promoting the book) are hypocritical goofballs with a detachment from reality. The Bible was used to "justify" slavery and genocide in this country. But that was a while back, so what about now? Let me see, how many people have been put in cages by "Christians" for not getting permission to exercise their freedom? While we hear Christians are being persecuted, Christians are putting Rastafarians and some Indians in jail for practicing their religions. Hell, we can't even buy beer in Kansas on Sundays because of these Christians, much less use pot. Porn is illegal in some Bible Belt states (and Utah); oh yeah, tell the Mormons about how Christians are being "persecuted". They had to leave and settle way out west to get away from them tolerant Christians. Millions have been put in cages by "Christians" who complain about being "persecuted".

	09-10-2003 06:32									#108
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Furthermore I do not ever once in my post attack homosexuality as a practice, I condemn fornication (which is so clearly against the commandment 'Thou shalt not commit adultery' that I need not label it as a sin). Do not label me a homophobe, do not label me a Pharisee, I am a Christian and only speak that we (You through any accidental wisdom and me through the myriad mistakes I depend on you to correct) might better know God.

	09-10-2003 06:36									#109
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quote: The Bible was used to "justify" slavery and genocide in this country. But that was a while back, so what about now?

It was also used to justify Crusades, despite it's law that 'Thou shalt not Kill'. That it can be bent to purpouses other than it's intent is unsurprising. I wonder if you could pervert 'Mein Kampth (Damn language, I can't spell)' until you could justify Jewish culture.

I don't complain about persecution, it's not bad nough for me to complain about, but I do see an emerging double standard between 'Christianity' who is guilty for it's dominance, and 'Everyone Else'. These are the seeds of persecution.

	09-10-2003 07:08									#110
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The Pope who blessed the cursades was probalby a much greater Bible scholar than anyone here. The statement: "the Bible does not back that up" is as useless as the statement "Islam is inhrently evil cause the Q'uran is writen like so". Human beings do not simply intake the information whole like some recorder. Interpretation always lies between our mind and the word: it is interpretation, built upon countless prejudices, pre-conconceptions, personal choices, our senses, and our experiences that define how we read a word. If interpretation never varied, there would not be secterian devides to any writen religions.

So what is says in the bible is secondary to the interpretation of the day, or of the individual, and the same is tru for all holy texts.

	09-10-2003 07:09									#111
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quote: Furthermore I do not ever once in my post attack homosexuality as a practice, I condemn fornication (which is so clearly against the commandment 'Thou shalt not commit adultery' that I need not label it as a sin).

Adultery and fornication are different.

But you ignored my point, "Christians" use their religion in this country to persecute people and then they complain about being "persecuted". Now, how are they persecuted? Some people don't want them using public schools to indoctrinate other people's children into their religion (the pledge of allegiance affirming a belief in God). C'mon! If Satanists were using public schools to get children to affirm a belief in Satan as "overlord" of this country, Christians would be screaming bloody murder. Yes, the ACLU goes over the line sometimes trying to separate church and state, but nothing they've done can compare with what Christians have done and what they continue to do.

	09-10-2003 07:19									#112
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quote: The Pope who blessed the cursades was probalby a much greater Bible scholar than anyone here.

Then I challenge him to justify it to me, I challenge his spiritual descendants to make me understand why we were to no longer love our neighbors as ourselves and were rather to slaughter non-Christians. The Bible does not say 'Love thy Christian neighbors' it says 'love thy neighbors'.

-

Variances of interpretation are the seeds of debate and reconcilliation of interpretation. There is nothing wrong with your statement that the written word is secondary to interpretation therof (There may be but I am unprepared to debate it) but such interpretation, in order to be valid, must encompass the entire document; not based upon such scripture as;

"Thou shalt ... Kill."

It must also be open minded and accept the interpretations of others, perhaps even incorporating such interpretations into their own beliefs. As this grows the mass interpretation becomes it's own belief and is documented. Such documentation is then open for interpretation and we progress another degree from the source documents. This leads to Reformation, when a return to source documents is invoked.

	09-10-2003 07:21									#113
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quote: I don't complain about persecution, it's not bad nough for me to complain about, but I do see an emerging double standard between 'Christianity' who is guilty for it's dominance, and 'Everyone Else'. These are the seeds of persecution.

quote: Yes, the ACLU goes over the line sometimes trying to separate church and state, but nothing they've done can compare with what Christians have done and what they continue to do.

I can't see where I missed your point.

	09-10-2003 07:25									#114
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Then I'll repeat it:

"Christians" use their religion in this country to persecute people and then they complain about being "persecuted".

I've provided a very small amount of evidence to support my argument and didn't even think of mentioning homosexuals who were, until recently, still put in cages in some particularly "Christian" states.

	09-10-2003 07:27									#115
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quote: Originally posted by SKILORD Then I challenge him to justify it to me, I challenge his spiritual descendants to make me understand why we were to no longer love our neighbors as ourselves and were rather to slaughter non-Christians. The Bible does not say 'Love thy Christian neighbors' it says 'love thy neighbors'.

He is dead. And the guy lived in Rome, a bunch of Arabs and Jews in Jerusalem were not his neighbors.

quote: Variances of interpretation are the seeds of debate and reconcilliation of interpretation. There is nothing wrong with your statement that the written word is secondary to interpretation therof (There may be but I am unprepared to debate it) but such interpretation, in order to be valid, must encompass the entire document; not based upon such scripture as; "Thou shalt ... Kill." It must also be open minded and accept the interpretations of others, perhaps even incorporating such interpretations into their own beliefs. As this grows the mass interpretation becomes it's own belief and is documented. Such documentation is then open for interpretation and we progress another degree from the source documents. This leads to Reformation, when a return to source documents is invoked.

That statement you just made is a result of the modern prejudices of our day. For a guy in 1098 the notion of telorance and so forth would be non-sense. After all, whatever the pope's arguement, it sure convinced a lot of people to undertake their mission from God.

	09-10-2003 07:30									#116
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Adultery and fornication are different.

Some would argue that fornication is adultery against your future wife.

Shall I take a member of the body of Christ and unite him with a prostitute?

	09-10-2003 07:36									#117
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quote: He is dead. And the guy lived in Rome, a bunch of Arabs and Jews in Jerusalem were not his neighbors.

Yes, he is, isn't he. You then intentionally misconstrue the meaning of neighbors so as to weary me.

quote: That statement you just made is a result of the modern prejudices of our day. For a guy in 1098 the notion of telorance and so forth would be non-sense. After all, whatever the pope's arguement, it sure convinced a lot of people to undertake their mission from God.

God is eternal, unchanging.

For Jesus, for the Apostles, for the Disciples, tolerance was an ideal. Why then has a man 1000 years later falllen from this? Apparently he has and the reasons matter not, but I cannot believe in your non-objective reality.

Adolf Hitler (I wish I had another despot to name offhand) convinced a lot of people to take up arms for the Fatherland, does this make his reasons true?

	09-10-2003 07:42									#118
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quote: Some would argue that fornication is adultery against your future wife.

Some may argue the sky is falling. Maybe that's why the OT punishment for fornication was marriage, not stoning as was the case for adultery (clearly the OT made a distinction). But you have no moral commitment to a future wife, just the commitment you make when you marry her. What if you marry the woman with whom you fornicate? What if you never marry? What if you're a homosexual? What if you die before you can marry?

quote: Shall I take a member of the body of Christ and unite him with a prostitute?

Why not? If God can call upon a prostitute to save Israel, then you can call upon a prostitute to have some fun. Btw, there's another group of people being persecuted by "Christians" - prostitutes and their customers.

	09-10-2003 07:49									#119
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quote: Originally posted by SKILORD Yes, he is, isn't he. You then intentionally misconstrue the meaning of neighbors so as to weary me.

Miscontrue? This whole new little side arguement is about intepretation..if you define the Infadel as men with souls, maybe you have to take care not to kill them. NOw where in the bible are infadelas defines as equals? God had the Israelites slaughter his enemies before..for all Christ said, that does not erase thew words of the Father.

quote: God is eternal, unchanging.

Then let him come down and say what he means every so often.

quote: For Jesus, for the Apostles, for the Disciples, tolerance was an ideal. Why then has a man 1000 years later falllen from this? Apparently he has and the reasons matter not, but I cannot believe in your non-objective reality.

Believe what you will. That still does not undo the relaity of the intepretation problem. Jesus was dead before Christianity begun, and Paul wrote about how to be a good slave...the Church and modern Christianity is as much a product of thousands of scholars scribb;ling from 60 ad and beyond than just Jesus.

quote: Adolf Hitler (I wish I had another despot to name offhand) convinced a lot of people to take up arms for the Fatherland, does this make his reasons true?

Reasons can't be true.

	09-10-2003 08:44									#120
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Skilord:

quote: I depend on God to grant me forgiveness, not to impose forgiveness upon me.

Agreed. God offers his grace and it is up to us whether we wish to accept the offer.