13-02-2004 08:38									#211
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Yay, cheese!

* Makahlua breaks out the xenoshiraz!

	13-02-2004 10:06									#212
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar Ya know what bothers me? Every time I make a ruling against a faction, I'm accused of being in the pocket of another faction. It's almost like I can't be a neutral god unless I always rule in favor of every faction and against no one.

We don't want you to rule in favor of every faction, we want you to rule in favor of us


Frankly, if I correctly understand the basis of your ruling, it was pretty stupid...That we used an "exploit" that we didn't even know about and in fact is just a coincidental facet of the random number generator? Do you check other faction's turn permutations to make sure that one former movement or that suspicious building rush isn't causing "unfair exploits" etc. ?


Basically, what ramifications does this have for future turn play? Are we now forbidden to scrap command centers before battles and whatever other slew of odds-affecting actions may be found?

	13-02-2004 10:09									#213
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I would say so, yes.
If you seriously disagree with me this much...Create a poll on it!

	13-02-2004 19:45									#214
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar Ya know what bothers me? Every time I make a ruling against a faction, I'm accused of being in the pocket of another faction. It's almost like I can't be a neutral god unless I always rule in favor of every faction and against no one.

eh?

So the fact that you just basically wrote "I'm right, you're wrong, I don't have to justify myself because I don't care what happens to your faction and will be horribly mean to you and play your turn badly if you don't cooperate" is neutral eh?

I don't think so.

quote: I would say so, yes. If you seriously disagree with me this much...Create a poll on it!

And there's the problem. We can't take this public without breaking the rule of discussing in-game elements without everybody knowing about said in-game elements.

Now if Googlie would post an official rules clarification poll which asked something about the randomizer function in SMAX as opposed to one of us simply posting a bunch of "We did X and Y happened, and Tass deemed X as a exploit because Y, under, another circumstance does Z, yet we can't tell you what X, Y, and Z are because then we'd be violating a previous rule and now the entire problem is moot anyway since we weren't allowed to draw it out longer due to threats from Tass..."

Yeah, that'd go over well...

	13-02-2004 23:25									#215
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too bad we couldn't post a poll before you made your decision

	13-02-2004 23:46									#216
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quote: I don't think so

Yawn. I've already justified myself.
Just because YOU can't accept it doesn't mean it didn't happen

quote: Yeah, that'd go over well...

Yes it would. It'd hurt your reputation more than it already has. Perhaps a little less bitter poll would help?
Because your all frothing at the mouth, I'll give a hand:

If an action causes a result not intended by the game creators (An "exploit"), yet it is not known (or at least has not been denied or accepted by the players of the demogame), should it be allowed?

OPTIONS: Yes, No, Put it up to vote before doing it, write in, xenobanana

Wasn't too difficult

quote: too bad we couldn't post a poll before you made your decision

One can always post a poll.

	14-02-2004 00:42									#217
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar Yawn. I've already justified myself.

If by justifying yourself you mean: I'm right, you're wrong, deal with it, then yes, you did.

quote: Just because YOU can't accept it doesn't mean it didn't happen

And only again, because you made it happen.

quote: Yes it would. It'd hurt your reputation more than it already has. Perhaps a little less bitter poll would help? Because your all frothing at the mouth, I'll give a hand:

Hang you, you just said, "Yes it would" to my it being against the rules to post, or what?

PEACE's reputation?

What about the whole CyCon backstabbing thing?

What about the whole this incident was even made public just due to the fact that there was a turn reload error? I wonder what would have come of it had Herc e-mailed me to replay the turn so that there wouldn't be one iota of a reload error.

I'm wagering that the CyCon would have still whined and moaned about what had happened and it would have still be ruled as an 'exploit' and something we weren't allowed to do.

quote: If an action causes a result not intended by the game creators (An "exploit"), yet it is not known (or at least has not been denied or accepted by the players of the demogame), should it be allowed? OPTIONS: Yes, No, Put it up to vote before doing it, write in, xenobanana Wasn't too difficult

Yeah... which is why I'm requesting somebody like Googlie to post it, again my point about a player posting it and other players would then start questioning what player X posted it. A mod posting it and everybody thinks "hey, somebody asked the mod a question and the mod is going to be basing his decision on said poll so I better actually think on it."

It's the same thing I had a problem with Googlie's ruling regarding the CyCon. Game altering rulings need to be decided on by the players not the watchers.

quote: One can always post a poll.

Said poll is just not always official like something like this needs to be, so no, one could not always post a poll since said official was forcing our hand to get the turn out before such poll results would be finalized.

	14-02-2004 02:32									#218
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quote: If by justifying yourself you mean: I'm right, you're wrong, deal with it, then yes, you did.

I've already said, it was an exploit and that's just not quite nice. I can't allow it. Yet you refuse to listen. It's most frustrating.

quote: Hang you, you just said, "Yes it would" to my it being against the rules to post, or what?

No. I meant "Yes it would not go over well", which would mkae more sense if it were "No it wouldn't go over wel".

quote: What about the whole CyCon backstabbing thing?

I'm not taking about CyCon. I'm talking about repeated PEACE attacks on the gods.

quote: I wonder what would have come of it had Herc e-mailed me to replay the turn so that there wouldn't be one iota of a reload error.

I dunno. But if your trying to say that PEACE should begin concealing things from me to escape punishment...and if I find out about those things, it will not be good.
There are other factions on Planet that know this first hand.

quote: I'm wagering that the CyCon would have still whined and moaned about what had happened and it would have still be ruled as an 'exploit' and something we weren't allowed to do.

And I'm wagering that if we did anything against you or even hinted that CyCon may have something, all you would still be frothing at the mouth.
Really.....I have to say though, my respect for Maka is pretty high right now. She isn't whining and moaning about my ruling and giving the gods a barrage of ad hominems. Instead, she has accepted it and moved on, like the rest of you should.
Makahlua

quote: Game altering rulings need to be decided on by the players not the watchers.

Unless its pro-PEACE, right?

quote: Said poll is just not always official like something like this needs to be, so no

If a player posts a poll, and the majority of the people say yes, then the gods will probably heed to the ruling of that poll.
And if you wanted to, you COULD make it retroactive. Of course, it would force you to divulge information, but if you have Hercs permission you can.

	14-02-2004 05:36									#219
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quote: I'm talking about repeated PEACE attacks on the gods.

and that's where the problem lies


you'll excuse us for being a little bitter, the way we have been screwed over would make anyone sour

	14-02-2004 09:22									#220
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Googlie has not "screwed over" PEACE.
I have not "screwed over" PEACE.
Yet, somehow, Googlie and I are responsible for the WTC, Iraq, the Oklahoma city bombing, and the next door neighbors dog dying.
It's slightly frustrating.

	14-02-2004 15:09									#221
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quote: If an action causes a result not intended by the game creators (An "exploit")

I think Tass ignores the fact that selling the Command Centre was a proper in game thing for us to do at that time. Not to win a battle (unknown consequence) but to speed the building of the Colony pod. An action that we had discussed well before the turn arrived.


Re An action causing a result the designers never intended.

Playing SP or indeed in MP games, many times I have encountered unexpected battle results against the AI and others.

Indeed earlier in this game one of our ships survived an encounter with a IOD, against the odds. So unexpected results are part and parcel of the games attractiveness.

	14-02-2004 21:24									#222
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar Googlie has not "screwed over" PEACE. I have not "screwed over" PEACE.

And I didn't say you have. But look at it from our perspective:

We're getting our asses kicked by those treacherous arrogant cyborgs, and the first time we win something, not even enough to have an impact on the game, just enough to say "ha, we showed 'em good!" that once, and what happens? It gets revoked on a technicality, ultimately just to satisfy the 'borgs ego.
You and Googlie did the right thing in investigating their complaint, even though I disagree with your conclusion. Its the 'borgs who, if they weren't such pansies, wouldn't have bothered to raise a stink about it.

And we are pirates after all, albeit currently scurrying and hiding "laying low" pirates. We owe allegiance and reverance to no one.

	15-02-2004 03:14									#223
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar I've already said, it was an exploit and that's just not quite nice. I can't allow it. Yet you refuse to listen. It's most frustrating.

Yes, you stated it was an exploit, pure and simple. Isn't the Stockpile bug in this fashion then also considered an 'exploit' yet why is this then banned? It should have been reported as a new bug to the game as a whole and then voted on just as the Stockpile bug was. That's my statement.

quote: No. I meant "Yes it would not go over well", which would mkae more sense if it were "No it wouldn't go over wel".

Ah.

quote: I'm not taking about CyCon. I'm talking about repeated PEACE attacks on the gods.

Eh? Attacks? Where? All I've read are discussions, though heated, regarding our feeling that you ruled without taking into consideration all of the facts.

quote: I dunno. But if your trying to say that PEACE should begin concealing things from me to escape punishment...and if I find out about those things, it will not be good. There are other factions on Planet that know this first hand.

OMG! Do you realize how silly that sounds? I'm saying, Herc could have gone, "er, I can't play it or there will be a reload message but we need an official turn played the way that we're wanting it played, so who else is active enough to play it, hey FF, are you willing to?"

"Sure, Herc, what do you want me to do?"

"[insert list of items]"

"No problem, I'll get it done tonight and send it over to Maki to post, sorry to hear there have been so many complications to playing the turn this time."

And that would have been the end of it. I know I wouldn't have noticed the supposed 'exploit' without all of the hubbub that you started by calling it such and ruling against it.

quote: And I'm wagering that if we did anything against you or even hinted that CyCon may have something, all you would still be frothing at the mouth.

Didn't really understand that one... could you reword it please?

quote: Really.....I have to say though, my respect for Maka is pretty high right now. She isn't whining and moaning about my ruling and giving the gods a barrage of ad hominems. Instead, she has accepted it and moved on, like the rest of you should. Makahlua

quote: Unless its pro-PEACE, right?

Sure.

Er, no! That's standard. In every game I've played in when there's a problem, the players decide if it should be accpeted or not, not the CMN (you aren't a 'god' after all, Tass.)

quote: If a player posts a poll, and the majority of the people say yes, then the gods will probably heed to the ruling of that poll. And if you wanted to, you COULD make it retroactive. Of course, it would force you to divulge information, but if you have Hercs permission you can.

And you see, there wouldn't even have been a need to attempt a retroactive one if it wasn't for your insistence on 'play it or I'll screw you all over when I play your turn.'

And I'm still noting that rather than there being an unbiased poll by you (or googlie, though he's wisely washed his hands of this situation, minus the playtesting that seemingly wasn't integrated into your decision) you're pushing for me or another PEACE member to post so that everybody would be going, 'hey, PEACE are aiming for some kind of point... what could it be? I'll do some digging.'

	15-02-2004 13:23									#224
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quote: quote: Really.....I have to say though, my respect for Maka is pretty high right now. She isn't whining and moaning about my ruling and giving the gods a barrage of ad hominems. Instead, she has accepted it and moved on, like the rest of you should. Makahlua

* Makahlua snorts

Accepted it? Hardly.

But I am no great debater, and others have brought up my concerns with better, uh eloquence? I'm just doing my bit to keep the -game- moving, in the interest of I don't want to see it die just when it's getting intersting. That, and foolish_icarus pretty much summed up my feeling a post or two ago Sorry if this makes your respect for me go down, but I really am a rabble-rousing pirate rogue at heart

* Makahlua highfives foolish_icarus

	15-02-2004 14:05									#225
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quote: Its the 'borgs who, if they weren't such pansies, wouldn't have bothered to raise a stink about it.

True, however I'm not the ethical police (or else the only factions left would probably be the Believers and the Angels ).
If you want to get revenge on CyCon, attacking me probably isn't the best way to do that

quote: It should have been reported as a new bug to the game as a whole and then voted on just as the Stockpile bug was.

But a decision had to be made, and it was made: It's not allowed.
If a poll comes up and the people say it is allowed, then its now allowed. Yay.

quote: All I've read are discussions, though heated,

quote: I'm saying,

And I'm saying by doing that, if I ever found out about it, i'd be highly suspicious.

quote: Didn't really understand that one... could you reword it please?

Rhetoric. Ignore it

quote: That's standard. In every game I've played in when there's a problem, the players decide if it should be accpeted or not, not the CMN

Different game then, eh?

quote: you're pushing for me or another PEACE member to post so that everybody would be going, 'hey, PEACE are aiming for some kind of point... what could it be? I'll do some digging.'

And then you could kindly tell them to mind their own business.

quote: 'play it or I'll screw you all over when I play your turn.'

Oh come now It's not like I would destroy PEACE, though tempted I would be.
The most I would have done is press end turn, which probably would have screwed PEACE over

Again: Invade CyCon and destroy all of them, or ally with the Hive and destroy CyCon, or do whatever to get revenge against CyCon.
Trust me, attacking me is a really bad way to make them cry

	16-02-2004 00:47									#226
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar Again: Invade CyCon and destroy all of them . . .

I picture an army of SMAX Sea-Lawyers defending the Borg homeland with a tidal wave of technical objections - after all, see the legal hue and cry that was launched when we merely tried to attack them outside one of our own bases.

quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar . . . attacking me is a really bad way to make them cry

Shivver me timbers maties, something I can sortof agree with here .

	16-02-2004 20:10									#227
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar quote: Its the 'borgs who, if they weren't such pansies, wouldn't have bothered to raise a stink about it. True, however I'm not the ethical police

Can't argue there.

quote: If you want to get revenge on CyCon, attacking me probably isn't the best way to do that

Who's attacking? I always enjoy a good discussion, I'm appreciative that mud hasn't been slung around much.

quote: But a decision had to be made, and it was made: It's not allowed. If a poll comes up and the people say it is allowed, then its now allowed. Yay.

* FlameFlash nods.

I'll run an idea for a poll at the end of this post then.

quote: And I'm saying by doing that, if I ever found out about it, i'd be highly suspicious.

* FlameFlash shrugs.

Aren't you usually anyway?

quote: Rhetoric. Ignore it

quote: Different game then, eh?

Most definately. I think that's part of my and Herc's problem. We do a decent amount of PBEM and were expecting this game to be handled similarly.

quote: And then you could kindly tell them to mind their own business.

Happily.

quote: quote: 'play it or I'll screw you all over when I play your turn.' Oh come now It's not like I would destroy PEACE, though tempted I would be. The most I would have done is press end turn, which probably would have screwed PEACE over

Exactly.

quote: Again: Invade CyCon and destroy all of them, or ally with the Hive and destroy CyCon, or do whatever to get revenge against CyCon.

I think it's in the works... slowly but surely.

quote: Trust me, attacking me is a really bad way to make them cry

Who's attacking you?

Seriously though, here's a poll submission for we pirates.

quote: Instances which can manipulate the random number generators of SMAC/SMAX and doing actions in different orders has been found to drastically change the odds of battles vs. mindworms, IODs, and even faction on faction battles, please choose one of the following options in how this case should be considered. 1. Banned totally 2. Accidents happen, if outclassed units win over their supieriors contact Tass or Googlie for playtesting help to rebalance. 3. Shrugs, it's called a 'random' number generator for a reason. 4. The Randomxenobanana struck again!

Input? I hate making polls.

	17-02-2004 00:46									#228
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quote: Who's attacking?

quote: Aren't you usually anyway?

quote: Input? I hate making polls.

Hmm....How about this instead?

quote: Instances which can manipulate the random number generators of SMAC/SMAX and doing actions in different orders has been found to drastically change the odds of battles vs. mindworms, IODs, and even faction on faction battles to the point where it can be considered an exploit. Please choose one of the following options in how this case should be dealt with. 1. Completly banned without vote. 2. Put up for vote. 3. Let Tass and Googlie decide. 4. Let it happen. 5. The Randomxenobanana struck again!

	17-02-2004 00:50									#229
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Thanks Tass, much less wordy.

Everybody else?

	17-02-2004 02:40									#230
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I'd strike the "to the point where it can be considered an exploit"--because that's what this is all about, determining whether or not it is an exploit. That language would also introduce ambiguity into the decision as there would have to be another evaluation for how far something has to go to be considered an exploit etc. Aside from that its good.

	17-02-2004 03:18									#231
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But with that language in there, it signals that the poll is about something that influences the RNG in an, er, odd fashion.

	17-02-2004 03:32									#232
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I think

quote: manipulate the random number generators

and

quote: drastically change the odds of battles

indicates that quite well. Anything more is unnecessary and potentially unbalancing.

	17-02-2004 03:35									#233
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But both are done in normal game operations. One can "drastically change the odds of battles" by building a better unit.
But you are right. This isn't the Civ3 DG...people here are smarter than that

	17-02-2004 03:39									#234
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Ban advanced units! Anything over a scout patrol is unfair and unbalancing! I shall make a poll immediately!

Last edited by foolish_icarus on 17-02-2004 at 06:17

	17-02-2004 03:40									#235
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It's mostly diffused and there's still 'discussion' about wordings.

	17-02-2004 03:43									#236
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damn double post...

Last edited by FlameFlash on 17-02-2004 at 04:02

	17-02-2004 03:51									#237
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quote: Originally posted by foolish_icarus Ban advanced units! Anything over a scout patrol is unfair and unbalancing! I shall make a poll immediately!

	17-02-2004 10:48									#238
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Until such time as anyone establishes that there is some predictable pattern to the effects on the random number generator, the only way to take advantage of it is to reload the turn, do something different before the event to be manipulated, and then try again, until you find an outcome that you like. This behavior is already banned under the no intentional reload/replay rule.

Ironically, in the case in point, Googlie was the one who did the reload/vary/replay when he attempted to test our move using a different approach (i.e. failing to do the things that Herc dd in the original version of the play. The baseline event was Hercs variation; Goog's version was publisized first, but actually was not the original version.

I'd be really surprised if it turns out that unbuilding a Command Center before making an attack consistently gives you better battle odds than if you don't unbuild one, so I would consider this to be flukey behavior by the game. The fact remains, however, that in order to exploit this kind of thing, one has to break the longstanding rule about intentional reloads to find a favorable outcome, otherwise, with only one attempt at the event, you don't know what better or worse outcomes are even possible, let alone how to manipulate the game to favor them.

	18-02-2004 05:14									#239
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Save that arguement for the poll discussion, that'd be a good one for the stance that one should just let it happen.

	19-02-2004 00:16									#240
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Well here we go!

The CP is on the transport, and we have by my estimate, 5-6 turns before landfall at the Hive. 3 ships (one Barque, 2 Sloops) are tagged to be trailing; I could also grab the other Sloop out of Pamplona. We're 1 PoE short of being able to prototype an Impact squad there next turn, but I'm thinking to hold that for something stronger when the drones' techs kick in. I'm thinking of sending the sloops along the more northern route to distract Cycon; the BootyBoat and Barque on the WNW route steering close to Roze's lands. (I'll put a picture in the thread.) Oh and the pop on Yardarm yeilded fungus. Woo. Should I try to pop that other pod on the 'Boot with the nearby crawler in case of PoE?

The save: http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php...677_mid2156.sav

http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php?file=22677_Routemap.jpg

Stupid new upload, it's doesn't show normally Anyway!

white/green = the Bootyboat with CP (white) and current sloop escort(green)
gray = sloop coming up from the boot (has already moved this turn
blue = incoming Barque
red=CyCon destoryer @ cailco; probably waiting on maries to capture the city.

slashes are the avaialble moves for the respective ships; pink is the proposed transport route, yellow and grey possible routes to interfere with that destroyer isf it goes west.

Last edited by Makahlua on 19-02-2004 at 00:56