28-10-2003 12:21									#361
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Kid,

quote: Again with the freedom to make the best decision available. How am I free if the best decision to make results in my own exploitation?

OK, let's play your game. It's "exploitive" for Vel to charge you to use his tool. But even if this is so, why is this bad? If you don't get the tool, you don't produce any more, and if you do get the tool, you produce 10 more units, with the drawback that you give one to Vel and end up with an extra 9 - 9 units that you did nothing extra for.

So, you come out ahead on the deal. Now, Vel also has to find some way to come out ahead, right? I mean, he spent time and money inventing his machine, didn't he? And he's only asking for 10% of your EXTRA production - if you don't take his tool, he isn't demanding any of your original production, so his cut only comes from what you are producing AS A RESULT of his invention that he's allowing you to use. Remember, you don't HAVE to use the new tool, but you're only hurting yourself is you do not.

Getting back to the point, though, freedom is simply the absence of coercion. In this example, you are perfectly free to either refuse to use the tool, or to agree to use the tool and give 10% of your extra production to the toolmaker. You aren't hurt either way - although refusing the tool certainly doesn't help you any. If you are hurt as a result of your competitor using the tool, well, then we can just chalk that up to your own stupidity - if you aren't smart enough to take advantage of opportunities, then why should you be in business to begin with?

Ramo,

quote: And it is.

So it's unfair that you don't own what I build?

quote: Sure, but I happen to think that force can be wrong regardless of who initiates it.

And I agree - ASSUMING that you have not VOLUNTARILY agreed to be subject to certain rules. That is, if you wish to enter into a contract with another person, you are voluntarily agreeing to give them certain things in exchange for certain things. This is only coercive if you didn't voluntarily agree to the contract in the first place.

For example, you are implying that it is wrong for an employer to expect you to work for your wages, and that it is wrong for the employer to fire you if you don't do what is expected of you. Is this your claim?

quote: If by "right," you mean state sanction, freedom means both.

Rights have nothing to do with state sanctions. State sanctions are called laws, and laws can just as easily infringe on rights as they can protect rights.

quote: No. Lack of money can be even more of a constraint (i.e. lack of freedom) than a law. For instance, I smoked up without much worry of being imprisoned this weekend, but for instance if I wanted to get a car, it'd be much, much more difficult.

That's silly. Freedom is simply the absence of constraints, and if you think freedom means the ability to take what you want for free, then what you are saying is that freedom is the ability to put constraints on others (taking someone else's car is certainly a constraint). So, then, in a free society, do you think it is required that you be able to take the property of another person?

As for smoking up, if a cop had been around you would be arrested. That's a constraint on your freedom. If you were browsing for cars at a car dealership, and a cop saw you, the cop wouldn't arrest you. That's an example of your freedom not being constrained. Surely you see the difference.

quote: But that isn't relevant as I was addressing Vel's argument, not something that didn't exist in his post.

Morality is implicit in any argument, whether or not it is being recognized.

quote: Why should the amount of money spent on education be proportion to the wage a worker recieves?

Because the amount of money spent on education TENDS to be be proportionate to the value of that person's labor, in the eyes of most people. Little amount of money spent on education = little worth in the job market. Lots of money spent on education (law school, medical school) = lots of worth on the job market.

Why is this true? Well, because doctors and lawyers are finite resources. Not everyone - and in fact very few people - can be a doctor or a lawyer, so the value of the labor of a doctor or a lawyer is necessarily higher than the value of the labor of a janitor. Anyone can be a janitor, it isn't that tough.

	29-10-2003 05:34									#362
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quote: Originally posted by Japher Kid ain't that young though. People generally become more and more conservative the less dependent they become on the government.

Only if their vested interest in the status quo increases.

	29-10-2003 05:46									#363
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd So, you come out ahead on the deal.

I'm not ahead on the deal. Vel is. The system favors him, because it allows him to profit from my work. The deal would only be fair if I got to keep the total benefit of my work.

You're just saying that I benefit from my work when Vel profits from it. That is true and I don't agrue. I only argue that it isn't fair because I don't recieve the FULL benefit from my work, that Vel benefits from it at my expense.

quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Getting back to the point, though, freedom is simply the absence of coercion.

Again, I can't really argue with you there. If you want to define freedom that way you are free to do so. I believe in freedom of coercion too, as long the result is equal treatment. When people are treated unfairly justice must be served at the expense of freedom of coersion.

	29-10-2003 06:44									#364
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I'm not ahead on the deal. Vel is. The system favors him, because it allows him to profit from my work. The deal would only be fair if I got to keep the total benefit of my work. You're just saying that I benefit from my work when Vel profits from it. That is true and I don't agrue. I only argue that it isn't fair because I don't recieve the FULL benefit from my work, that Vel benefits from it at my expense.

I haven't read the rest of the thread properly, but I assume you want to pay Vel a flat rate to acquire/use his tool, or at least on variable basis related to the fair cost of using the machinery (e.g wear and tear, depreciation, insurance risks etc..)?

I think the argument that you shouldn't have to pay on a per profit basis is a reasonable one if a suitable costing basis can be made. My counter-argument would be that Vel's benefit in owning and building the tool is not being realised correctly unless it is valued on the amount of profit it can generate. If his tool can increase your profit by 30% shouldn't he get more from it in rent than if it only increased profit by 20% (assuming all other things are equal)? If he gets just as much from you in rent in both circumstances then he is obviously missing out on the full benefit from his effort. If he gets paid on a commision basis he will be more likely to try and improve the quality of the tool so that it can make a profit of 40%.

	29-10-2003 07:16									#365
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quote: Originally posted by Big Crunch I haven't read the rest of the thread properly, but I assume you want to pay Vel a flat rate to acquire/use his tool, or at least on variable basis related to the fair cost of using the machinery (e.g wear and tear, depreciation, insurance risks etc..)? I think the argument that you shouldn't have to pay on a per profit basis is a reasonable one if a suitable costing basis can be made. My counter-argument would be that Vel's benefit in owning and building the tool is not being realised correctly unless it is valued on the amount of profit it can generate. If his tool can increase your profit by 30% shouldn't he get more from it in rent than if it only increased profit by 20% (assuming all other things are equal)? If he gets just as much from you in rent in both circumstances then he is obviously missing out on the full benefit from his effort. If he gets paid on a commision basis he will be more likely to try and improve the quality of the tool so that it can make a profit of 40%.

No, I want the tool to be community property. This is from part of the discussion that Vel was having with Ramo. I think it is 2-3 pages back. I'm not sure exactly what Vel was getting at.

	29-10-2003 07:37									#366
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Out of curiousity, do you consider that computers should be a communal property? They are tools that vastly improve productivity.

	29-10-2003 09:24									#367
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Kid - if the tool would become community property, why would he bother inventing it at all?

Actually, how about he invents it, and then USES it to make the same product you do. He then sells that product for half the price. This is exploitive, HOW? He has used his OWN intelligence and his OWN labor to make something. If he wants to sell it cheaply - which means more people can afford it, even those poor exploited workers - why can't he?

	29-10-2003 09:49									#368
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quote: The system favors him, because it allows him to profit from my work.

Well you are profiting from Vel's intelligence and risking his capital (his work). Without his work you wouldn't get jack.

	29-10-2003 09:53									#369
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quote: The system favors him, because it allows him to profit from my work.

YOU are profiting from HIS work as well, because you are producing 90% more than before. So I guess the system favors you, as well.

	29-10-2003 17:35									#370
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker quote: The system favors him, because it allows him to profit from my work. YOU are profiting from HIS work as well, because you are producing 90% more than before. So I guess the system favors you, as well.

Don't confuse Kid with the obvious!

	29-10-2003 18:04									#371
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The only way for Kidicious to reach his ideal not exploitive economic system is the individual absolute autarky. No more labour contractual agreement, no more sales at pseudo agreed prices ; I grow the corn with which I make my bread, I carve my sabots in the wood of the tree I cut myself, and nobody can even try to benefit from my (hard) work. Commerce and cooperation are evil traps invented to exploit me, and I much prefer the hardship of absolute autarky which provides hardly enough food, let alone healthcare and comfort, with a life expectancy not exceeding 30 years.

	29-10-2003 18:36									#372
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Oh yes....and there's the crux of it.

Kid wants to pluck the idea from my (individual) head, co-opt it to the state, so he can use it for nothing. That way, he can exploit me without *calling* it exploitation.

What he does not realize is that if I have no means of getting any sort of compensation for my invention, it will never get invention, and he'll be stuck at 10/day.

Kid, people enter into contracts all the time.

If you have children, and have to PAY a daycare center to watch them while you're at work, they're not exploiting you when they charge you, EVEN THO they're (to couch it in your language) "robbing you of some of the value of your day's production" - the point is, you don't HAVE to make use of their service! If you choose to, you pay the price for it (some of your day's production). If you don't choose to, then you keep that bit.

Choice.

Contrast that to your utopia where there IS no choice. It's the state's way, or die.

If you want, I'll buy you a ticket to China. Go get a taste of heaven firsthand....

-=Vel=-

	29-10-2003 18:42									#373
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Don't worry, he'll find another aspect to argue since he has lost this one AGAIN. Or he'll just ignore it and say you're wrong.

	29-10-2003 18:43									#374
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Of that, good sir, I have no doubt!

-=Vel=-

	29-10-2003 18:46									#375
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I'm not ahead on the deal. Vel is. The system favors him, because it allows him to profit from my work. The deal would only be fair if I got to keep the total benefit of my work.

Incorrect, because if you use MY tool in what you are doing, it is now "our work" and OUR WORK (20/day) is better than YOUR WORK (10/day). And you get to keep most all the gain from OUR WORK. I get a little, but we both get more than we had.

-=Vel=-

	29-10-2003 19:25									#376
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Vel, could not you propose a rent a little lower, something like 0.8 instead of 1. This deal is so great that we all believe it would be a shame not to cut it. Dont be too greedy... And I assume that this includes a one year warranty (parts and labour) at least. I assume also that this tool does not incorporate any part imported from a rogue country.

	29-10-2003 19:32									#377
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Simply stated, invention is work. No different than any other work. Compensation has to incur or that type of work won't be done. It is also one of the most valuable of works and should be compensated at a greater rate then Doctors or Lawyers since the overall value to society is higher, And finally, true invention is considerably rarer.

	29-10-2003 19:43									#378
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I can always be bargained with, Dave! So sure, we could even do 0.8, but to keep the receipts in "whole units" of production, we'd have to figure it differently....maybe annualize it?

Say you work 200 days a year, gaining 10 extra, from use of the tool. That'd be 2000 extra production, annual. 0.8 would be 160....I'm good with that...

-=Vel=-

	29-10-2003 19:44									#379
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Rah, I agree. Kid's definition of "work" revolves solely around individual labor.

It does not take into account labor-enhancing devices that may be provided by a third party (which makes "his work" "our work" - oh no, he wants to make full, free USE of those labor-enhancing devices, and keep the full benefit.

-=Vel=-

	29-10-2003 21:30									#380
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quote: Originally posted by Big Crunch Out of curiousity, do you consider that computers should be a communal property? They are tools that vastly improve productivity.

There should be community owned computers, yes.

	29-10-2003 21:33									#381
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker Kid - if the tool would become community property, why would he bother inventing it at all?

He could be compensated for inventing and improving tools.

	29-10-2003 21:37									#382
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: The system favors him, because it allows him to profit from my work. Well you are profiting from Vel's intelligence and risking his capital (his work). Without his work you wouldn't get jack.

Did he build the tool? If so then he should use it himself. I don't see anything wrong with that. If he builds it to take advantage of the system and profit from my work then that's another story.

As far as me not getting any benefit from my own work without Vel's work. That's just silly. Vel is just one person. The world would continue without his work. We make our own tools.

	29-10-2003 21:38									#383
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Invention does not work like that, Kid.

You can't just give some guy off the street a regular paycheck and tell him to go invent something.

What you'll get, far more often than not, is a guy who pockets your money, and goes home to play on his gamecube or post on 'poly. That's why (well, one reason) you're proposed system WON"T WORK.

Add to that the fact that you can't have a functional banking system (rent is evil, remember, which means interest charged on money is evil), and your vision of the revolution is going exactly nowhere.

-=Vel=-

	29-10-2003 21:40									#384
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious There should be community owned computers, yes.

He was referring to working computers.

	29-10-2003 21:40									#385
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and Kid, you miss the point. It is far more EFFICIENT for you to not bother with making your own tool, especially if you can't really figure out how right off. And you wouldn't need to. You could be twice as productive by entering into a contractual arrangement with me, and we both win.

You, using my tool, make doube what you made on your own (making you better off, by far), and I get a bit too, for providing the means that doubled your productivity.

NOT exploitation.

-=Vel=-

	29-10-2003 21:41									#386
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker So I guess the system favors you, as well.

The system doesn't favor me. You're confusing the benefit that I recieve from the tool with the way the system treats me. We can benefit from the tools in any system.

	29-10-2003 21:42									#387
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If you see a net 90% gain in your productivity, yes, my friend, the system favors you.

-=Vel=-

	29-10-2003 21:43									#388
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And how does the system "treat you" in this example?

It gives you a clear choice: Continue as you are, with a productive capacity of 10 per day, or double it to 20/day, and give me one for providing you the means of doing so...for turning your work, into our work.

-=Vel=-

	29-10-2003 21:43									#389
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx and Kid, you miss the point. It is far more EFFICIENT for you to not bother with making your own tool, especially if you can't really figure out how right off. And you wouldn't need to. You could be twice as productive by entering into a contractual arrangement with me, and we both win. You, using my tool, make doube what you made on your own (making you better off, by far), and I get a bit too, for providing the means that doubled your productivity. NOT exploitation. -=Vel=-

I'm not proposing that everyone make their own tools. That would be inefficient. The tools should be owned by the community. Then efficiency is equal but more work is done because no one is compensated for simply owning tools. Furthermore, the system treats everyone equally.

	29-10-2003 21:44									#390
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx If you see a net 90% gain in your productivity, yes, my friend, the system favors you. -=Vel=-

Not if my productivity is improved regardless of the system. The tool improves my productivity. Not the system.