14-10-2003 20:17									#31
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Capitalists, however, can't spell

I can't

Profit = earnings - expenses

those who think otherwise don't know what they are talking about. Wages are expenses to the grocer and earnings to the bag boy... Anything left after feeding their family, paying rent, or in the case of the grocer any overhead (including the bag boy's earnings) is profit.

Unfair tax? Not sure what you are talking about, but I think a lot of tax is unfair... That's a constant in life.

	14-10-2003 20:25									#32
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat And profit has nothing to do with a tax. Or have you never heard of businesses losing money and going out of business?

Companies don't make money don't have to pay taxes, either.

	14-10-2003 20:28									#33
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Japher Profit = earnings - expenses those who think otherwise don't know what they are talking about. Wages are expenses to the grocer and earnings to the bag boy... Anything left after feeding their family, paying rent, or in the case of the grocer any overhead (including the bag boy's earnings) is profit.

Are you talking in accounting terms?

If so, feeding family and paying rent (except for the shop) don't count.

	14-10-2003 20:29									#34
	So untrue Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

They just don't have to pay income taxes. However they still have to pay:
Pay Roll Taxes
Sales Taxes (sometimes)
License Taxes

And I am undoubtedly missing a few.

EDIT: forgot Property Taxes

	14-10-2003 20:29									#35
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

if the commies had there way, according to this thread atleast, the workers should get all the cash whilst the owner and his family have to starve.

Hows that coincide with your average communist conspiracy, Mandrake!

	14-10-2003 20:30									#36
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: If so, feeding family and paying rent (except for the shop) don't count.

As expenses (to the bag boy)?

	14-10-2003 20:31									#37
	Re: So untrue Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by pchang They just don't have to pay income taxes. However they still have to pay: Pay Roll Taxes Sales Taxes (sometimes) License Taxes And I am undoubtedly missing a few.

They don't pay payroll taxes, their employees do. They just collect the $ for the government.

They don't pay sales taxes either.

Here, if a company doesn't make $, it doesn't have to pay for a business license.

Anything else?

	14-10-2003 20:33									#38
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Japher As expenses (to the bag boy)?

Since only businesses can make a profit, your question is meaningless.

	14-10-2003 20:34									#39
	Re: Re: So untrue Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger They don't pay payroll taxes, their employees do. They just collect the $ for the government. They don't pay sales taxes either. Here, if a company doesn't make $, it doesn't have to pay for a business license. Anything else?

in the UK, atleast, the bussness has to contributew to the Natianal Health insurabce of the employee i beleive.

quote: If so, feeding family and paying rent (except for the shop) don't count.

I guess they don't, but with our these 'prfits' that bloke gets no return for his labour (and contrary to lefty beleif, the boss does have to do a helluva lot of work - what you put in you get out etc), and with no return, the poor sod has to starve without a home i guess. His fault for being a hard working honest capitalist i guess

	14-10-2003 20:36									#40
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Companies don't make money don't have to pay taxes, either.

Even if true (I highly doubt it is.), what does this have to do with the thread?

	14-10-2003 20:41									#41
	Re: Re: So untrue Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger They don't pay payroll taxes, their employees do. They just collect the $ for the government. They don't pay sales taxes either. Here, if a company doesn't make $, it doesn't have to pay for a business license. Anything else?

In many countries their is an employer contribution to the payroll taxes. In the US, companies match the amounts employees pay for Social Security and Medicare.

In many countries, companies pay sales taxes when they are the end users of the products they buy. They pass through sales taxes on items they resell to consumers.

In many countries (in the US, States and Cities also have their own license fees), business license fees are not waived.

	14-10-2003 20:41									#42
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Since only businesses can make a profit, your question is meaningless.

Your a sad, sad man

quote: Profit = earnings - expenses

Care to show me where I put "this equation holds true only for buisnesses" or where in your head you came up with the notion that only buisnesses earn a profit?

	14-10-2003 20:42									#43
	Re: Re: Re: So untrue Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by The Andy-Man I guess they don't, but with our these 'prfits' that bloke gets no return for his labour (and contrary to lefty beleif, the boss does have to do a helluva lot of work - what you put in you get out etc), and with no return, the poor sod has to starve without a home i guess. His fault for being a hard working honest capitalist i guess

What I am saying was, in terms of accounting, the owner's personal finances is separate from his shop/company/etc. You can't put those on the P&L of the company.

	14-10-2003 20:45									#44
	Re: Re: Re: Re: So untrue Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger What I am saying was, in terms of accounting, the owner's personal finances is separate from his shop/company/etc. You can't put those on the P&L of the company.

no, but seeign as he owns the compnay, he also owns the profits, and seeign as he has no 'wages', the 'profits' are his means of substinance.

That are many occcasions where the owner can earn less the his employees, maybe his employees should have their wages cut so he gets an even share?

	14-10-2003 20:46									#45
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

UR: I see what you are getting at.

What about buisness that earn a profit, but have no employees? Should they be forced to hire people?

	14-10-2003 20:47									#46
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Japher Care to show me where I put "this equation holds true only for buisnesses" or where in your head you came up with the notion that only buisnesses earn a profit?

That's why I specified "accounting terms," which, AFAIK, is the orignal intent of the OP.

Yes, you can say a person earn a profit, but that's not the same meaning.

	14-10-2003 20:48									#47
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger That's why I specified "accounting terms," which, AFAIK, is the orignal intent of the OP. Yes, you can say a person earn a profit, but that's not the same meaning.

so, what you are doing is obscuring the argument so that it is meaningless?

as i already said, he who owns the company owns its profits....

	14-10-2003 20:53									#48
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by pchang In many countries, companies pay sales taxes when they are the end users of the products they buy.

That's an expense, not a tax.

quote: Originally posted by The Andy-Man no, but seeign as he owns the compnay, he also owns the profits, and seeign as he has no 'wages', the 'profits' are his means of substinance.

Not all the time. He can pay himself a salary.

quote: Originally posted by The Andy-Man That are many occcasions where the owner can earn less the his employees, maybe his employees should have their wages cut so he gets an even share?

I suppose that's possible. Frequently, steps will be taken to correct the imbalance, so to speak.

quote: Originally posted by Japher What about buisness that earn a profit, but have no employees? Should they be forced to hire people?

I suppose the OP is about businesses making $ at the expenses of their employees. If there are no employees, there is no exploitation, so they don't count. Like small craftsmen.

	14-10-2003 20:57									#49
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger That's an expense, not a tax. Not all the time. He can pay himself a salary. I suppose that's possible. Frequently, steps will be taken to correct the imbalance, so to speak. I suppose the OP is about businesses making $ at the expenses of their employees. If there are no employees, there is no exploitation, so they don't count. Like small craftsmen.

sales tax is not a tax, HAHAHHAHAHAHAHAH. omg I almost fell out my chair.

	14-10-2003 20:59									#50
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

O-k, little confussed... it's early for me sorry.

I see what Kid is trying to get at is that companies should be required to reimburse their employees according to their profit earnings... Many companies do this, and it is built into their buisness models. Of which, many of these companies see great success.

However, they do this in a manner to insure employee loyalty and company substance. They do this through stock options, profit sharing, and setting pay tiers.

I think the most communist of all buisness models was that of Ben&Jerry's which had set pay teirs based on earnings. It was like saying X% will be reinvested into the company for equipment, facilities, upkeep, and upgrades with Y% given to inverstors as a return (which included employees) and the remaining Z% distributed at a set percentage amongst the employees... The guy who turned the butter got a%, they guy who drove the truck b%, and the owner of the company c%... If the owners wanted more of the profit due to high earnings or less money needing reinvestment they would either pay higher dividends or increase pay, and either would benefit the whole company...

Worked for them until the were bought out for mega-cash, and the quality of their ice cream has since dropped...

---

On a side note. One loop hole the employeer could use is to assign his dependents as employees and write-off their "expenses". He could even have a "company" car and and "office" at home. Also, the owner would most likely not live off of profits, but assign himself a salary... As with Steve Jobs having a salary of only $1/year, probably to screw an ex-wife or something

	14-10-2003 23:34									#51
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Companies don't make money don't have to pay taxes, either.

They pay payroll taxes other than trustees taxes (the part that's collected from employees wages), sales and use tax on goods purchased other than for resale, real and personal property taxes, utility taxes, etc. Income taxes are deferred, in some/most cases, but states such as California have minimum taxes even when you lose money.

	14-10-2003 23:39									#52
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Japher On a side note. One loop hole the employeer could use is to assign his dependents as employees and write-off their "expenses". He could even have a "company" car and and "office" at home.

And IRS is all over that kind of transparent BS.

	15-10-2003 00:42									#53
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I know two different friends who's parents own family businesses and the family car gets written off as a business expense. They've been doing that with each car they buy for at least the last 12 years that I've known them.

	15-10-2003 01:48									#54
	Get a bigger avatar today!

If you can get away with audit roulette, sure you can abuse the hell out of the rules.

However, if you go by the book, or more precisely, the IRC, you can only deduct mileage rate unless business use is more than 50% of total mileage.

Personal and commute mileage is non-deductible under either mileage rate or percentage of cost methods.

If the company directly pays for the vehicle and allows you to use it for personal or commute use, the fair market value of such use (generally what it would cost as a lease) must be 1099'd to you as a miscellaneous income item.

If you use the mileage rate method, the "standard" mileage rate only applies for 15,000 miles per yer for four years, as 15 cents per mile of that rate is allocable to depreciation. After that, you have to use a much lower mileage rate.

If you have less than 50% qualifying business use, or no policy that restricts the vehicle to business use only, it is ineligible for expense treatment under Section 179 of the IRC.

If you have high enough profit and/or gross sales that the vehicle deductions disappear into the background noise, then you can get away with flagrantly skating the rules - most everyone does, and most everyone gets away with it, but assuming you can do something legally, and assuming you can break the law and get away with it are two different things.

Mostly IRS just fines you, but there are a fair number of people in Federal prisons from MLM scams like Amway and others, when they played the personal expense deduction and "home office" game to extremes.

	15-10-2003 03:26									#55
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Companies don't make money don't have to pay taxes, either.

Yes they do. You pay taxes BEFORE expenses, on your income, not on your net income (profit).

However, if you have no income at all, you are right, you will pay no income taxes

	15-10-2003 03:44									#56
	Tired of ads?

quote: The US was founded on a revolution against unfair taxation. Anger over unfair taxes is part of our national identity.

Kid, who was imposing those unfair taxes? GOVERNMENT! And your solution to the evils of profit? A 100% GOVERNMENT tax (communism)? Good one, Kid, cite the capitalists who created this country to promote communism.

quote: Working people who know very little about economics and politcs find it so easy to critisize the government because of what they percieve as unfair taxes. It's easy to see how taxes hurt you because they come out of your check or you have to pay them directly. Why can't more working people see that profit, rent and interest comes out of their pay too?

Pardon me, Kid, but if an employer did not make the investments in machinery and land, etc, what would your labor be worth if you were a machinist working for that employer? Less, nada? That's right, the machinist's labor is worth less without the employer's investments, so the extra money the machinist makes because of the employer's investments = PROFIT! Profit belonging to the machinist!!!

If no one owned baseball teams, how much would Derek Jeter's labor be worth? Not much... But because someone invested loads of money to build a team and all that goes with it, Jeter's labor is much more valuable. Jeter PROFITS because of what someone else did to increase the value of his labor...

	15-10-2003 04:02									#57
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Jeter Swallows!

Oh, sorry... got caught up in playoff fever .

	15-10-2003 05:16									#58
	Inflate your Upload Space

Otter's right!!!

	22-10-2003 08:17									#59
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by The Andy-Man if the commies had there way, according to this thread atleast, the workers should get all the cash whilst the owner and his family have to starve.

I think you're getting it.

	22-10-2003 08:20									#60
	Re: Re: Re: So untrue Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by The Andy-Man in the UK, atleast, the bussness has to contributew to the Natianal Health insurabce of the employee i beleive.

Well maybe not. Businesses don't contribute anything. The employees contribute everything. It's as simple as that. Profit comes from work and so does the tax collected from businesses.