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Kidicious
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Diety of Kidiverse
Mar 2003
time: 21:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Berzerker
Good one, Kid, cite the capitalists who created this country to promote communism.
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This country was built on hard work and the land was stolen. Capitalists didn't do any of it. The sat on their fat asses.
quote:
Originally posted by Berzerker
Pardon me, Kid, but if an employer did not make the investments in machinery and land, etc, what would your labor be worth if you were a machinist working for that employer? Less, nada? That's right, the machinist's labor is worth less without the employer's investments, so the extra money the machinist makes because of the employer's investments = PROFIT! Profit belonging to the machinist!!!
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All you are talking about is organizing labor. It's not much work at all. I'm not saying that you shouldn't make a living doing it, but get real. Why should you get rich?
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Kuciwalker
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of Schmooism
Feb 2001
time: 00:31
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quote:
Typical. You are completely ignoring real economic circumstance. |
quote:
In the economic system parties negotiating a deal either have an advantage or disadvantage in the deal. |
WRONG!
Gotcha. Finally, we have narrowed your argument down to the fallacy at its core. You are assuming this is a zero-sum game. It is not. In the example where I am paying you "fair value" (which is a pretty ephemeral concept in itself), we BOTH benefit - you get money from me for the gold, and I get "profit". A more simple proof of this is that you got the gold for "free" - you used your labor to get it out, but if I'm paying the "fair value", you are getting the same or more money in return. The economy isn't a zero-sum game because there is a constantly increasing supply of raw materials, while there is a constantly decreasing supply of "produced" materials. ALL money is made by moving something along the way from the first category to the second.
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One has greater negotiating power and the other has less. That's why the market price/wage isn't fair. If you have the advantage you insist that it is fair and you ignore the real world. |
Nope, "fair" IS determined COMPLETELY by supply/demand. If suddenly, five billion trillion metric tons of gold were to come on the market, why should I pay you lots and lots of money for gold? It's everywhere! Without supply and demand, any value applied to a product is completely arbitrary.
EDIT: I see he seems to be ignoring this for now, so I can make some more edits and touch this up 
Last edited by Kuciwalker on 22-10-2003 at 09:02
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MichaeltheGreat
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Apolyton Grand Executioner
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mooning the house that Ruth built.
Oct 1999
time: 21:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Kidicious
Typical. You are completely ignoring real economic circumstance. In the economic system parties negotiating a deal either have an advantage or disadvantage in the deal. |
Sometimes, yes. If you're talking about unskilled laborers doing menial work, who are easily replaced by other unskilled laborers or machines, and who generate no value added by any work experience (for example, someone who dresses up as a cell phone and holds a sign on the street pointing to a cell phone store), then yes, they have a disadvantage in the deal. Is that the employer's fault?
They also produce very little of tangible value.
They are, however, free to acquire skills with higher value, and change employers.
People who work in other fields which require specialized knowledge or training, and/or which benefit from years of worker's experience get paid more, because the value of what they produce is more, and they are less easily replaced due to the specialized nature of their skills and their experience.
The labor market adjusts accordingly.
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One has greater negotiating power and the other has less. That's why the market price/wage isn't fair. If you have the advantage you insist that it is fair and you ignore the real world. |
Fairness is not determined by equality of results. It is determined by the ability of either party to enter or leave the market. If the employer can't or won't hire people, he goes out of business. If the worker chooses not to work, he can starve or live off of someone else. There are penalties to both sides for leaving the market, and benefits to both sides for entering the market - and the magnitude and distribution of those costs and benefits varies with economic conditions.
During the dotcom bubble, a lot of companies deluded themselves that they needed to pay mediocre code jockeys six figures because they listed the latest and greatest things on their resumes, and it was just a "must have." Reality hit, and a lot of IT people landed on their asses, having spent their money like pimps, and so did a lot of owners and investors. Both pick up and move on, but it's "fair" because both sides were willing participants and agreed on the terms of their relationship.
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Kidicious
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Diety of Kidiverse
Mar 2003
time: 21:31
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quote:
Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
Sometimes, yes. If you're talking about unskilled laborers doing menial work, who are easily replaced by other unskilled laborers or machines, and who generate no value added by any work experience (for example, someone who dresses up as a cell phone and holds a sign on the street pointing to a cell phone store), then yes, they have a disadvantage in the deal. Is that the employer's fault?
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No, it's the systems fault. The employer is just playing the game. It's only the employers fault when it defends the system.
quote:
Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
They also produce very little of tangible value.
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And the employer produces nothing of tangible value.
quote:
Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
They are, however, free to acquire skills with higher value, and change employers.
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Acquiring skills costs money and takes time. The fact that they can acquire more skills does not make the current deal fair. Plus as you say, they are probably to stupid to anyway 
quote:
Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
The labor market adjusts accordingly.
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Exacltly my point the price is adjusted by supply and demand and as the agents negotiating power changes. And you have decided that this is fair why?
quote:
Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
Fairness is not determined by equality of results. It is determined by the ability of either party to enter or leave the market. If the employer can't or won't hire people, he goes out of business. If the worker chooses not to work, he can starve or live off of someone else. There are penalties to both sides for leaving the market, and benefits to both sides for entering the market - and the magnitude and distribution of those costs and benefits varies with economic conditions.
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Fairness is determined by results when it is known that agents have differing negotiating power. People have to accept deals when they know they are being taken advantage of. When know that this is true, and we can see that it is by the outcomes.
quote:
Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
During the dotcom bubble, a lot of companies deluded themselves that they needed to pay mediocre code jockeys six figures because they listed the latest and greatest things on their resumes, and it was just a "must have." Reality hit, and a lot of IT people landed on their asses, having spent their money like pimps, and so did a lot of owners and investors. Both pick up and move on, but it's "fair" because both sides were willing participants and agreed on the terms of their relationship. |
This is a special case. I see it as an example of the inefficiencies of capitalism. It's hard to see any one party getting screwed. It just didn't work.
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MichaeltheGreat
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Apolyton Grand Executioner
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mooning the house that Ruth built.
Oct 1999
time: 21:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Kidicious
What is so different from letting the welfare state take care of you and collecting profit, rent, and/or interest? No difference.
Risk has to be taken, but not necessarily by individuals. |
There's so many huge differences it's almost impossible to believe you're not trolling.
1) The "welfare state" will determine for you what it deems adequate care. If you're someplace like Norway, with a tiny population and a shitload of an easily extractible resource with huge global demand, that's one thing. In the rest of the world, it's another.
2) If you collect profit, rent or interest, (assuming these are in addition to regular earnings), you have considerable flexibility in how those are invested, and whether and how you adapt to changing economic conditions.
3) A welfare state has to have continuous revenue growth to increase standards of living over time. No welfare state has ever achieved this.
4) There is no evidence whatever that a planned economy is or will be responsive enough to create, let alone implement, emerging technologies in an efficient way.
5) The incentives are entirely different. I would have no incentive under a welfare state system to spend time since 1994 designing the software technologies I'm now completing. The first commercial installation of that system will come almost exactly a decade since the original design concept. With the welfare state, my rewards would be the same whether I put in the effort or not, and whether I succeeded marginally, spectacularly, or if I failed entirely. So why go the effort, when I could have spent more time playing at stuff that was more fun?
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MichaeltheGreat
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Apolyton Grand Executioner
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mooning the house that Ruth built.
Oct 1999
time: 21:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Kidicious
No, it's the systems fault. The employer is just playing the game. It's only the employers fault when it defends the system. |
And the faults of centrally planned systems are even more extensive. No system is perfect. Just less imperfect.
quote:
And the employer produces nothing of tangible value.
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Just the design, the means of production, the organization of people, materials, products and money that efficiiently delivers the laborer's work product to the marketplace in a marketable form. Do you really want to buy a car by hiring each individual designer and laborer, then going out and finding them the necessary machine tools, and renting them the necessary shop space? Or maybe each one is expected to provide his own machine tools and work in his back yard?  And do the laborers and parts and machine suppliers (or all laborers in your self-limited world view, since nothing else counts) want to wait until you get a complete product before they get paid? Ahhh, but comrade, great Stateski Carski pays them. And in five years, you vill get your Trabant. 
No, you just want to buy the ****ing car, not spend a year or two of your life organizing production to get your equivalent of Fred Flintstone's car. Or waiting your turn to get the state approved piece of **** that's decades behind real world technology. GM, or Toyota or whoever acts as an integrator of all their different laborers and subcontractors and vendors, to take a whole bunch of related but separate pieces of work, and deliver them into a single, useful package for the consumer.
quote:
Acquiring skills costs money and takes time. The fact that they can acquire more skills does not make the current deal fair. Plus as you say, they are probably to stupid to anyway
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So does organizing labor, capital, workspace, marketing, and procurement of source materials.
quote:
Exacltly my point the price is adjusted by supply and demand and as the agents negotiating power changes. And you have decided that this is fair why?
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If your ideal centrally planned economy doesn't adjust for supply and demand, it'll work just fine - all the slack in employment will be taken up by people working in construction to build warehouses to hold the **** that nobody wants, or in transport taking it from the factories to the warehouses, or in the black markets producing what people do want.
It's fair because all participants have the opportunity to plan for changes in the labor markets, to anticipate them, and to decide how they want to deal with those changes.
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Fairness is determined by results when it is known that agents have differing negotiating power. People have to accept deals when they know they are being taken advantage of. When know that this is true, and we can see that it is by the outcomes.
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People don't have to accept deals. If someone offers to hire me for either my software development or energy consulting work, but they'll only pay me $15.00 an hour, I'll laugh in their face. 25 years ago, when I was a teenage scab construction laborer, I would have jumped at $15.00 an hour, even if you adjust back for inflation. The difference? I worked at changing my market value and bargaining power.
If people refuse to change their job market value and decide to remain unskilled, don't expect me to sympathize with them, any more than I'd sympathize with a business who claims to want an IT staff, or TIG welders, or high voltage journeyman electricians, but will only pay $10.00 an hour, and goes out of business rather than pay market costs for skilled labor.
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This is a special case. I see it as an example of the inefficiencies of capitalism. It's hard to see any one party getting screwed. It just didn't work. |
It's only one example of a fairly common case. Labor shortages in skilled or specialty labor have created imbalances in the market in favor of those employees until the market adjusted - generally by more and more people pursuing the skills necessary to get those jobs. Obviously, the further down you are in the skills/value level you bring to the marketplace, the less likely that a shortage of labor is going to appear to benefit you, but the demand side of the labor market is a big part of why you train in some skills, and don't bother with others.
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22-10-2003 08:21
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