17-10-2003 19:22									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse That's a very sad story. My sympathies.

Thanks, but I didnt post it for sympathy - im really quite fine about it. I posted it for insight - and to raise a question - which you havent answered - do you think Israeli behavior was the source of that antisemitism?

	17-10-2003 19:25									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse you basically have no idea what you are talking about, do you.

I dont know nearly as much about southeast asia as i would like. i would appreciate learning more.

Which does not contradict anything Ive said.

	17-10-2003 19:32									#63
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well I've been around East Asia for over 15 years, been to Malaysia several times, and I never noticed any antisemitism until the intifada.

But really it was more anti Israel sentiment. Many Jewish people live quite happily in East Asia, mainly because people in that part of the world wouldn't know what a Jew is. They have an idea what a Jew is but couldn't tell a Jew from another European.

	17-10-2003 19:57									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse well I've been around East Asia for over 15 years, been to Malaysia several times, and I never noticed any antisemitism until the intifada.

Ok. Some relevant empirical evidence at last. That IS evidence that the antisemitism in Malaysia is largely due to events in Israel/Palestine. Thanks for the info.

Now some follow up questions - the intifadah began at the end of 2000. The southeast asia financial crisis was in 1998. Were you in Malaysia between 1998 and 2000? Did you notice any antisemitism in Malaysia then?

Have you spent any time in Indonesia? Indonesia, unlike Malaysia, is said here to have a substantial community of Wahabi muslims (due to recent Saudi subsidies, outreach, etc) Unlike Malaysia, the President of Indonesia, Megawati Sukarnoputri, though critical of Israel, is not known for the kind of statements Mahathir is known for. Could you charecterize differences between Indonesia and Malaysia in this regard?

	17-10-2003 19:59									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse They have an idea what a Jew is but couldn't tell a Jew from another European.

have you ever read Philip Roth on why Jews like Chinese restaurants?

	17-10-2003 20:04									#66
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Thanks, but I didnt post it for sympathy - im really quite fine about it. I posted it for insight - and to raise a question - which you havent answered - do you think Israeli behavior was the source of that antisemitism?

no but the current situation in Israel and the "measures" taken by the Israeli governement won't improve this anti-semitism feeling neither.

and the story, sad as it may be, does not take place in south east asia ...

but i admit, if Israel wouldn't exist they would have found somebody or something else to rally against ...

	17-10-2003 20:34									#67
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quote: Originally posted by dannubis no but the current situation in Israel and the "measures" taken by the Israeli governement won't improve this anti-semitism feeling neither. and the story, sad as it may be, does not take place in south east asia ... but i admit, if Israel wouldn't exist they would have found somebody or something else to rally against ...

My point was that the absence of Jews does not prove that antisemitism in any particular place is only (or even primarily) a result of Israeli behavior.

When antisemitism breaks out, it is appropriate to condemn and deal with it - not to change the topic to middle eastern politics.

Israel should NOT violate Pal rights, and SHOULD attempt to reach a peace with the Pals. It SHOULD, meanwhile, do what is necessary to defend its citizens against those who would murder them, for whatever reason. And we should not count on antisemitism around the world, or anti-americanism, or terrorism, or Al qaeeda, going away if and when an Israeli-Pal peace settlement is reached.

	17-10-2003 20:39									#68
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quote: Originally posted by problem_child All you know about Africa is what your state controlled media service tells you about it to make you feel lucky to be American. Good news is no news, Africa isn't all famine and war, there are nations that have come along way forward since colonialism and the creation of arbituary rescource-gathering demarcations for borders.

Too bad, but I'm not feeling lucky to be an american. I'm not american.

I'm well aware that africa is not just famine and (civil) wars. But I cannot say that the development has been great in any way. The continent is actully producing less food per head than they did 50 years ago. The political systems are mostly useless etc.

Nevertheless, you're missing the point. Maybe not that strange as it wasn't adressed to you in the first place, but still. My point was that it's way to simple to say that "[muslims] are the only group in the world which has managed to slide backwards since the end of WW2." Africa is not doing great either. Maybe the term muslim isn't that good a term to use to divide countries up in failures and success-stories.

	17-10-2003 20:39									#69
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LOL Oh geeze, finally finally SOMEONE is speaking out against 'the Jews'!

Someone has had the GREAT COURAGE to stand up and say (what has been bleated many many times by every cheap yokel trying to distract the people) what needed to be said!

What tremendous moral vision! Obviously the Jews have been having it FAR too easy lately and it's time some great leader 'Broke the Silence'....


I wonder what Mahathirs AMAZING REVELATION will provoke? Will there be a great revolution in civilized circles at his PROFOUND insights??

NOTE: You may have missed the OBVIOUS LABOURED SARCASM

	17-10-2003 20:46									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse well I've been around East Asia for over 15 years, been to Malaysia several times, and I never noticed any antisemitism until the intifada.

That's actually irrelevent. Not being Jewish, you'd be less likely to more subtle aspects. I never saw any antisemetism in the Western suburbs of Chicago, not even when the Nazis were trying to march in Skokie. People were upset about the damn Nazis. Yet, not far away in the south suburbs, a future aquiantance of mine was getting his ass kicked for being a Jew, having a principal pull him out of class to make sure he didn't interfere with plans for the school's Christmas play, etc.

	17-10-2003 21:01									#71
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AP (via Haaretz)

'EU fumbles over statement blasting Malaysian PM for remarks against Jews

By The Associated Press

BRUSSELS, Belgium - French President Jacques Chirac
blocked the European Union from ending a two-day
summit Friday with a harshly worded statement
condemning Malaysian Prime Minister Mahathir
Mohamad's remarks about Jews a day earlier.


Backed by Greek Prime Minister
Costas Simitis, officials said,
Chirac objected to a few short
sentences in a 19-page summit
statement deploring Mahathir's
comment at an Islamic leaders
summit that "Jews rule the
world by proxy."

Foreign ministers Thursday night
had drafted a text that said: "His unacceptable
comments hinder all our efforts to further
interethnic and religious harmony, and have no
place in a decent world. Such false and
anti-Semitic remarks are as offensive to
Muslims as they are to others."

Italian Foreign Minister Franco Frattini told
reporters Thursday night Mahathir's remarks
were "gravely offensive."

But when the paper was handed to EU leaders
Friday morning, Chirac said there was no place
in an EU declaration for a text of this kind,
diplomats said. Other leaders agreed, although
the Netherlands wanted the wording to stay in
the declaration.

The leaders then compromised by having Italian
Premier Silvio Berlusconi, the summit host,
criticize Mahathir at his closing news
conference.

Officials said the draft text also would be
issued as a separate statement and would be
posted on the EU presidency website.


Berlusconi told reporters Mahathir's comments
about Jews undermine efforts to bring different
religions closer.

"All of our efforts must go toward a dialogue
between the Western world and the Islamic
world, between Christian religion and Islamic
religion," he added.

Britain summons Malaysian diplomat
Britain summoned Malaysia's top diplomat in
London on Friday to express concern about
Malaysian Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad
remark that Jews rule the world, the Foreign
Office said.

Malaysian High Commissioner Mohammed Dato'Abdul
Aziz was summoned Friday morning to meet
Minister of State Mike O'Brien "to raise our
concerns directly about Prime Minister
Mahathir's speech," the Foreign Office said.

"It's unfortunate that Mahathir chose to make
these remarks which we regard as unacceptable.
It's particularly regrettable that some of his
positive and welcome messages, such as
negotiation being the right path to peace and
the futility of terrorism, have been obscured
and overshadowed by racist remarks," the
Foreign Office said.

Netherlands
UK
Germany (in another article)
Berlusconi
Chirac
Simitis

	17-10-2003 21:05									#72
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"The leaders then compromised by having Italian
Premier Silvio Berlusconi, the summit host,
criticize Mahathir at his closing news
conference."

That smacks that some considered it 'dirty work' to give to their pet clown.

I doubt they would entrust Berlusconi with speaking for the EU if they wanted to taken seriously.

Having Berlusconi say it means 'we don't take it seriously'

	17-10-2003 22:09									#73
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AP

'"The fact is that they are biased, most of them are biased. They think while it is proper to criticize Muslims and Arabs, it is not proper to criticize Europeans and Jews," he told a news conference after closing the summit.


"If the Muslims can be accused of being terrorists, of course others can accuse the Jews of being terrorists also." '


Can someone please tell me when in the last 2 years a western head of state has accused muslims IN GENERAL of being terrorists?

	17-10-2003 22:10									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Seeker "The leaders then compromised by having Italian Premier Silvio Berlusconi, the summit host, criticize Mahathir at his closing news conference." That smacks that some considered it 'dirty work' to give to their pet clown. I doubt they would entrust Berlusconi with speaking for the EU if they wanted to taken seriously. Having Berlusconi say it means 'we don't take it seriously'

Maybe it just means he was the summit host?

	17-10-2003 22:30									#75
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How could Chirac get away with not condemning this crap? This smells like Chirac is once again pandering to the bigots in France's Arab community.

Italy
UK
Netherlands

France
Greece

	17-10-2003 23:34									#76
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quote: Originally posted by problem_child Blacks n Muslims an the like? That's like saying Eurasians n Catholics an the like... demonstrates a profoundly ignorant understanding of human identity, culture and religion. Are you some kind of alien?

Idiot.

There was a story on FOX just now as to why we are not seeing any movies on 9/11, the war on terror or the war on Iraq. And, to the extent terrorist do play a role in movies, they are never Muslims. In fact, when a book such as the Sum of All Fears was put onto the silver screen, the plot was changed from the terrorists who blew up the Superbowl in Denver with an a-bomb being Palestinians, to neo-Nazi's who blew up Philidelphia. The reporter interviewed a number of important individuals in Hollywood. There were two reasons put forth for this steadfast unreality coming out of Hollywood:

1) PC - one does not paint Muslims in a negative light;

and

2) a profound hatred of George Bush - they will not make a patriotic movie where George Bush is portrayed in a positive light.

PC and the hatred of George Bush by Hollywood and by the national news media other than FOX is profound and corrupting. There is no doubt that racist Muslim leaders have long recieved a pass from Hollywood and the national media.

	17-10-2003 23:38									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse A bit of both probably - but in South East Asia there are no Jews, and most ordinary people wouldn't know what a Jew was, so its really all about Israel's behaviour.

There is absolutely no excuse for flagrant racism.

	17-10-2003 23:52									#78
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark AP "At their own summit in Brussels, Belgium, European Union leaders had drafted a harshly worded statement condemning Mahathir's remarks, but French President Jacques Chirac blocked the wording from becoming a part of a final declaration. The text had said Mahathir's "unacceptable comments hinder all our efforts to further interethnic and religious harmony, and have no place in a decent world. Such false and anti-Semitic remarks are as offensive to Muslims as they are to others." Chirac, however, said there was no place in an EU declaration for such a text. EU leaders compromised by having Italian Premier Silvio Berlusconi criticize Mahathir at his closing news conference. Officials said the draft text also would be issued as a separate statement and would be posted on the EU presidency Web site. Australian Prime Minister John Howard called Mahathir's comments offensive and repugnant. " Howard Chirac:

The failure to condemn such outrageously racist statement is itself offensive. The French seem paralized by more than just pro-Muslim PC. The seem to be openingly anti-Semitic.

Franch and Chirac must be condemned for this.

	18-10-2003 15:07									#79
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I have been watching for a report of this on ABC Evening News. Nada. Nothing. Censorship.

Anyone surprised?

	18-10-2003 15:33									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Kropotkin Ever heard about a place called Africa?

You mean that big continent with Somalia, Chad, Nigeria, Sudan, Tanzania, Niger, Algeria, Lybia etc.?

	18-10-2003 16:18									#81
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quote: And, to the extent terrorist do play a role in movies, they are never Muslims.

Apart from in True Lies. And Back to the Future part I.

	18-10-2003 19:24									#82
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara That's actually irrelevent. Not being Jewish, you'd be less likely to more subtle aspects. I never saw any antisemetism in the Western suburbs of Chicago, not even when the Nazis were trying to march in Skokie. People were upset about the damn Nazis. Yet, not far away in the south suburbs, a future aquiantance of mine was getting his ass kicked for being a Jew, having a principal pull him out of class to make sure he didn't interfere with plans for the school's Christmas play, etc.

I wouldn't pretend to know what its like to be Jewish but I can tell you that its hard to underestimate the ignorance of the outside world in places like Indonesia.

I had someone who should know better telling me that muslims were persecuted in Egypt because Egypt is a Christian country

(yes, yes, I know about the copts)

	18-10-2003 19:34									#83
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The EU should set the record straight by issueing a statement declaring that the EU controls the world, not the Jews. They should end the statement with an invitation to "bring it on."

	18-10-2003 19:46									#84
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quote: And Back to the Future part I.

The Libyans in Back To The Future were wronged plutonium merchants, not terrorists.

	18-10-2003 21:07									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: And Back to the Future part I. The Libyans in Back To The Future were wronged plutonium merchants, not terrorists.

Plutonium merchants that wanted Doc to build a bomb? Yeah right.

	18-10-2003 21:15									#86
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quote: Plutonium merchants that wanted Doc to build a bomb?

Oh yeah, they did want him to build a bomb. I thought he bought it from them and then screwed them out of money for some reason...

Anyway, it still doesn't make them terrorists.

	18-10-2003 21:41									#87
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I've checked the script, and Doc refers to them as 'Libyan Nationalists', which could mean anything. But probably terrorists.

	18-10-2003 21:44									#88
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Wow, you care a lot more than I do...

Still haven't proved them to be terrorists, though.

	18-10-2003 21:50									#89
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What does this guy mean by that: "invented socialism, communism, human rights and democracy"?

OK, Marx was a jewish. Not sure about Hengels. But human rights and democracy?!?
Does he claims that Solon and Kleisthenes were jewish?

I suspect he meant a more modern democracy but which one?

And what is this hysteria about jewish controlling the world?

	18-10-2003 22:02									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Wow, you care a lot more than I do... Still haven't proved them to be terrorists, though.

Alright, I'll settle for them being 'shifty middle-eastern gentlemen with an interest in acquiring a nuclear bomb'.

quote: OK, Marx was a jewish.

Marx wasn't Jewish. His dad was a Jew who converted to Protestantism, if I remember rightly.