19-10-2003 06:16									#31
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Well ACTUALLY Mark, unless you're being paid simply for views (which is the reason why the dotcom bubble burst in the first place) rather than for people clicking on your ads and buying the products, your pop-ups are pretty useless anyhow.

Let's examine a couple scenarios.

1. Visitor comes to your site, is presented with a semi-pornographic image of Britney Spears and realizes what a crap site this is. Leaves.

2. Visitor comes to your site, no pop-ups, surfs your site, loves it to pieces, buys a copy of RON thru one of your links. Or, buys a mug from your store. Etc.

To cut a long story short, pop-ups suck and sites that use then will burn in hell. Thank god for Mozilla.

	19-10-2003 06:30									#32
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Question: how much more likely is a visitor to click a banner than an ad in a pop-up? I'm sure some market research was done on this topic?

Personally, I much prefer advertisement through banners, as IMO, pop-ups are evil. Banners can get pretty annoying sometimes, too, especially the flashing ones, but I quite like the ones I see here at 'Poly in a sense that they don't really interfere with viewing the content.

	19-10-2003 13:11									#33
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: your pop-ups are pretty useless anyhow

popups are indeed paied on a cpm(cost per thousand impressions) basis rather than cpc(cost per click). unfortunately they've been critical in the funding of Apolyton over the last two years. on the issue of people buing games through our links, they do help a lot too, but as the games we cover dont have new releases every day, but 2-3 every year, income from them are mainly concentrated in specific time periods

quote: how much more likely is a visitor to click a banner than an ad in a pop-up? I'm sure some market research was done on this topic?

if you think about it, popups would not continue to exist if they werent effective. even popup blockers are in favor of popups as a banner type(until the day of course that all browsers come with a by-default-enabled popup blocker ), since people who would never click on the ad are just not seeing it, thus make the response numbers better

	19-10-2003 20:34									#34
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by MarkG if you think about it, popups would not continue to exist if they werent effective.

Well, obviously... I still fail to understand why spam messages generate any return at all, but obviously they do since there's so much of them. Same holds for popups, I suppose.

quote: Originally posted by MarkG since people who would never click on the ad are just not seeing it, thus make the response numbers better

I never thought about it that way. Interesting.

	20-10-2003 05:54									#35
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Mark,

Thank you for doing what I told Dan to do. I sleep better knowing that you are back minding the shop.

	20-10-2003 06:31									#36
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

cost per impressions makes sense if you believe all the marketing mumbo-jumbo like "images" and "branding" and "customer awareness".

in other words, they're really effective if your IQ is under 40.

	20-10-2003 11:31									#37
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Wow, 'Poly must be making a bundle then

	20-10-2003 12:02									#38
	Support Apolyton

Please clarify this for me!
As a rule, I block all cookies that are from advertisers, because my browsing is not for them to know and I don't want to become their target for additional spam.
But, by blocking bfast and qksrv cookies (the only ones I've identified with Apolyton) from being stored on my hard drive, I have been costing Apolyton money?
Please clarify this for me!

	20-10-2003 13:30									#39
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Pop-ups have been 'Poly's main source of funding for some time now.

	20-10-2003 19:57									#40
	Tired of ads?

gwillybj,

qksrv: yes, but only if you've followed related links(with qksrv in them ) and bought something...

bfast: in somes cases impressions(=showing of a banner) will not be counted(e.g. we wont be paid for it)...

in any case, cookies do not harm you....

Last edited by MarkG on 20-10-2003 at 20:06

	21-10-2003 01:55									#41
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by MarkG in any case, cookies do not harm you....

Mark: I know you have a webmaster's perspective on this. I respect that. But webmasters and advertisers on the internet will have to come to grips with the fact, that most people consider some cookies an invasion of privacy.

The way many cookies function, they store information about your browsing habits, so that this information can be read the next time you accessthe site that particular cookie is from. To me, this is an invasion of privacy, as I'm not informed about what is stored, nor am I told what is read.

I know this will not cause harm to me, nor to my computer, but still....some cookies are at best shady.

This was a user's perspective.

That said and done, I want to help Apolyton make some money, so I don't block pop-ups, nor have I ever done so.

Asmodean

	21-10-2003 02:12									#42
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Asmodean The way many cookies function, they store information about your browsing habits, so that this information can be read the next time you accessthe site that particular cookie is from. To me, this is an invasion of privacy, as I'm not informed about what is stored, nor am I told what is read.

Well, I am not sure that is true, actually. Cookies can only be written or read by the site that issued them. So, for instance, CFC can't read my 'Poly cookies, nor is the fact that I visit 'Poly more often than CFC written into CFC cookies. They are restricted by the domain name, so they can only be read or written by the same domain where you got them from in the first place. In that, sense, there is no information about your surfing habits in the cookies accessible to the shady sites. The only information they can write or read from your cookie is how often you visit their site, and which pages on their site you visit, and potentially how long you stay there. I, personally, don't see how that is an invasion of privacy - the sites that don't use cookies can achieve the exact same thing with the IP address tracking. (Well, having a dial-up connetion and thus a dynamic IP introduces a certain amount of complications to that, but in general that is the case.)

	21-10-2003 04:32									#43
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Thanks for the explanation. I guess I was mislead by various paranoid rants. I identified these three as Apolyton advertisers, and their cookies are now allowed past the crusher: qksrv, bfast, atdmt. There may be other advertisers that I've never blocked, so they've been allowed all along, and, of course, apolyton.net cookies were never blocked.

	21-10-2003 07:32									#44
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Well, I am not sure that is true, actually. Cookies can only be written or read by the site that issued them. So, for instance

But they CAN be read by people other than the user... who can track where users visit. (at least that is my understanding... the reading may not be legal and might be connected to hacking, but it's still disturbing.)

	21-10-2003 08:10									#45
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by DarkCloud But they CAN be read by people other than the user... who can track where users visit.

No. That's the whole point of the cookie: it can only be read by the same site that issued it. For instance, suppose you log in to Apolyton, and set your personal preferences so you can remain logged in the next time you come back. Then, your log-in information is stored in a cookie. In fact, all "remember password" forms work that way. Do you think people would do it that way, if any old site could read your cookies? No. That's why cookies are at once fairly secure, and present no (in my view) intrusion of privacy: because they cannot be read by any site other than the one that created them.

(Since we are getting a little deeper into this "debate" than before, I suppose it is good to mention the fact that what I describe above is the way cookies are supposed to work. There was, indeed, one, or two instances, where it was discovered that one could read cookies issued by another domain through clever use of vb script, due to a few bugs in the way client-side scripting was implemented in IE. Note however, that, for one thing, only IE was subject to this vulnerability; that it had been fixed; and that it is not the normal practice. For all intents and purposes, cookies cannot be read by a domain that did not issue them.)

	21-10-2003 15:48									#46
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by MarkG please let me know how exactly it's malicious and how it damages your computer

It infringes my privacy as a tracking cookie. Simple as that. And that's why both Lavasoft Ad-aware and Spybot S&D recognise it.

	21-10-2003 20:41									#47
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

* sigh *
Ras, bigger problems excist you know. Accept the cookie, eat it for all I care and move on.

	21-10-2003 21:27									#48
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Asmodean But webmasters and advertisers on the internet will have to come to grips with the fact, that most people consider some cookies an invasion of privacy.

i know that, but my stance is mainly in clarification of an issue that's not as important as some people think

quote: The way many cookies function, they store information about your browsing habits, so that this information can be read the next time you accessthe site that particular cookie is from. To me, this is an invasion of privacy, as I'm not informed about what is stored, nor am I told what is read.

at the same time, all sites in the world since the first day of the internet already log your browsing habits in access logs without using cookies

yet somehow people dont complain about the existance of httpd logs...

	21-10-2003 21:35									#49
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: i know that, but my stance is mainly in clarification of an issue that's not as important as some people think

	22-10-2003 08:59									#50
	Put an end to popups!

at least put the britney popup back

	22-10-2003 09:24									#51
	Got spare money?

No pop-ups. A good thing.
I'm technophobic and haven't got a clue as to what your talking about, but does this mean I won't see anymore B.Spears pop-ups when I log on?
I would like that.

	22-10-2003 13:16									#52
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Popups from one of our previous ad providers have been enabled. The frequency should be 1-2 per session regardless of forum style.

Please report on anything going wrong.

Thank you

	22-10-2003 13:43									#53
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by alva Accept the cookie, eat it for all I care and move on.

No way, dude.

	22-10-2003 21:30									#54
	Suffering from ads?

I've preordered a copy of Conquests through Apolyton. I'll probably do the same with all games that I want and Apolyton is advertising.

But I'll still keep visiting (all sites in fact) with Mozilla. Pop-ups just aren't welcome, unless I ask for them.

	23-10-2003 12:34									#55
	Inflate your Upload Space

I just got the Britney Spears and smilies popups upon loading the main forums page (http://apolyton.net/forums/). This is my first visit to 'Poly in a couple of days.

	23-10-2003 13:39									#56
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

no gator reports so far... cool.....

Last edited by MarkG on 23-10-2003 at 13:52

	23-10-2003 13:47									#57
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Well Britney is resilient, but gladly Gator seems not to be.

	23-10-2003 14:01									#58
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Yep, Britney is back and so is the "you're in danger one".
Back to normal hey

	23-10-2003 17:40									#59
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

the Spears one. and the "The publishers of this website blah blah buy our anti-spyware product" one. But that's it

	30-10-2003 15:56									#60
	Increase the size of your Attachments

After further tests we have identified two of our popup providers(an older one and one that we had tried in our search as an alternative) as sources of highly intrusive ads that asked visitors to install software on their computers

Ads from these sources have not run (except the mentioned tests) on Apolyton for the last 2 weeks and no user reports have been noted. Cooperation with the specific providers have stoped completely.

That said, the current amount of popups server to our users is now smaller and gator-less. "Operation Gator" officially ends here in success