17-10-2003 02:04									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Yep, but the purposeful production of culture within said group, along as the purposeful separation from the rest of society is something I condemn, because it leads people to say "I'm gay" before "I'm French" or "I'm human".

Surely the nationalistic desire to say 'Im French' is simply communitarization writ large?

	17-10-2003 02:06									#32
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun So you're appalled that homosexuals are more comfortable in gay communities??

No, I'm appaled some active gays are building a lore for their own separate community, for less active gays to follow.

Let's take an example. I, Spiffor, am a member of the Apolyton community. I normally post several hours a day here. But I don't feel my belonging to Apolyton separates me from the rest of society in any way. I don't fell different from non-Apolytoners in the real world, and I'm keeping my Human and my French identity, that Apolyton is enriching.

Now, if I felt so comfortable on 'Poly that I avoided social relationships in the real world, if I pictured myself as an Apolytoner first, and if I wore Apolyton culture in my everyday (such as wearing Apolytonware; saying "you provide no source, you provide NOTHING !" to my teachers; or dancing the DL dance at parties), I'd think the Apolyton community would be a bad thing for it would be dividing the society.

	17-10-2003 02:09									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Snotty Surely the nationalistic desire to say 'Im French' is simply communitarization writ large?

It is. My beef is not exactly with existing communities (such as a country), my beef is with communities being built, and being purposefully separating from the rest of society.

And as to myself: I hope I'm seen as a human being before being seen as a Frenchman

	17-10-2003 02:20									#34
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Identity groups exist whether you like them or not, Spiffor. In a modern society we have to acknowledge the fact that there are groups that have radically different experiences from each other and have different things to pluralistically contribute to the society we hold in common. We need to build a society where the ideal is not to be "normal", but to be yourself and acknowledge and celebrate all your identities, whatever they may be, not drive yourself to conform for the sake of some misplaced liberalism or socialism.

We need to recognise that what we percieve as normal may simply be society's dominant groups imposing their standards on other people because they have the power, and that a denial of differences may in fact be the general acceptance of one norm dictated by one identity group. What is to say "normal" society is not in fact heterosexual society, or male society, or culturally western society, denying the subordinate groups their participation and expression?

	17-10-2003 02:24									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Buck Birdseed Identity groups exist whether you like them or not, Spiffor. In a modern society we have to acknowledge the fact that there are groups that have radically different experiences from each other and have different things to pluralistically contribute to the society we hold in common. We need to build a society where the ideal is not to be "normal", but to be yourself and acknowledge and celebrate all your identities, whatever they may be, not drive yourself to conform for the sake of some misplaced liberalism or socialism.

I don't think this is true. These things don't really exist, they are just an illusion. Of course various bunches of people have convergent interests and shared experiences, but it's nothing more than that.

There certainly isn't a "gay viewpoint" only the vewpoints of individual gay people, which may or may not converge on some issues.

Identity politics is an illusion because identity is a personal and not a communal phenomenon.

	17-10-2003 02:28									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Identity politics is an illusion because identity is a personal and not a communal phenomenon.

Wow. So there's nothing Gays have in common that Straight people lack? I could give you a clue if you like.

	17-10-2003 02:35									#37
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Heterosexism is based on the belief that heterosexuality is superior to homosexuality.

It's more than that. Heterosexist ideologies say that men and women have certain defined roles, and that people who act outside those roles should be punished, supressed, ostracized, etc. Saying that women can't be combat soldiers is an example of heterosexism. Saynig that homosexuality is immoral is an example of heterosexism. Saying boys can't cry is an example of heterosexism.

The reason I think the word is superior to homophobia is a) people aren't afraid of gays and lesbians, and two, it ties the repression of homosexuality into sexism and the whole notion of what "proper" roles are for men and women. Homophobia isn't seperate from sexism, but is an aspect of it.

	17-10-2003 02:39									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel quote: Similar I guess, to a chauvinistic, sexist man married to a woman. I am hetrosexist, according to your definition. However I don't think that gay people are worse than straight people. This are two different things/

I don't think so. He means superior in the way white supremists think they are superior to everyone else.

	17-10-2003 02:43									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor It is. My beef is not exactly with existing communities (such as a country), my beef is with communities being built, and being purposefully separating from the rest of society.

Groups that seperate themselves typically were seperaqted out unwillingly beforehand. If no one had ever oppressed gays, there would be no gay culture, no gay seperatism, no Castro Street, South Beach, etc. Seperation is an act of self-defense in the face of a large social entity that tells you you're evil.

quote: And as to myself: I hope I'm seen as a human being before being seen as a Frenchman

Depends on where you are. In the U.S. you'd likely not be to welcome right now, because you're a Frenchman.

	17-10-2003 02:44									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Identity politics is an illusion because identity is a personal and not a communal phenomenon.

Comrade Marx would disagree with you most strongly.

	17-10-2003 02:48									#41
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I think saying that your gay-friendly is like saying "I'm not a racist"... I just tell everyone I'm a racist and a homophobe that way I can get away with my crass sense of humor.

Communial Separation will always occur, and IMO it is the downfall of society... Oh, well.

	17-10-2003 02:48									#42
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Comrade Marx would disagree with you most strongly.

Indeed he would, which is why I'm not an orthodox commie. I'm generally opposed to Hegelianism and its offshoots.

On the other hand, class consciousness is a sort of illusion no matter which way you look at it.

	17-10-2003 02:50									#43
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Groups that seperate themselves typically were seperaqted out unwillingly beforehand. If no one had ever oppressed gays, there would be no gay culture, no gay seperatism, no Castro Street, South Beach, etc. Seperation is an act of self-defense in the face of a large social entity that tells you you're evil.

I wasn't born at the time where the society was really shunning gays (I don't think the gay marriage issue of today is any close from the situation of 30 years ago, when straight people could go chase and humiliate some gays for the heck of it, and get away with it).
But as far as I understand, the gay culture has begun really being built once it became possible to publicly announce one's gayness. Today, the gays are among the best accepted minority in western countries, yet it is the moment they choose to have "gay-only" conventions (see some Blackice's thread), where gay flags are clearly displayed in the streets etc.

I personally think this doesn't come from oppression, but from a need of feeling elite. Yet again, the university work I just finished today was about the creation of such kind of identities

	17-10-2003 02:51									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor No, I'm appaled some active gays are building a lore for their own separate community, for less active gays to follow. Let's take an example. I, Spiffor, am a member of the Apolyton community. I normally post several hours a day here. But I don't feel my belonging to Apolyton separates me from the rest of society in any way. I don't fell different from non-Apolytoners in the real world, and I'm keeping my Human and my French identity, that Apolyton is enriching. Now, if I felt so comfortable on 'Poly that I avoided social relationships in the real world, if I pictured myself as an Apolytoner first, and if I wore Apolyton culture in my everyday (such as wearing Apolytonware; saying "you provide no source, you provide NOTHING !" to my teachers; or dancing the DL dance at parties), I'd think the Apolyton community would be a bad thing for it would be dividing the society.

I make, and have friends, regardless of sexual orientation.

Yet, at the same time, I support distinctive, residential gay communities in metropolises as a place of positive affirmation, and support networks.

	17-10-2003 02:53									#45
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Gay-friendly = putting up with MrFun

	17-10-2003 02:55									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Today, the gays are among the best accepted minority in western countries, yet it is the moment they choose to have "gay-only" conventions (see some Blackice's thread), where gay flags are clearly displayed in the streets etc.

Who live in a world where the dominant religions all call them evil. Identity politics isn't about being better than everyone else. It's about not being the dogshit someone scrapes off their shoe in the grass while cursing.

	17-10-2003 02:55									#47
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara It's more than that. Heterosexist ideologies say that men and women have certain defined roles, and that people who act outside those roles should be punished, supressed, ostracized, etc. Saying that women can't be combat soldiers is an example of heterosexism. Saynig that homosexuality is immoral is an example of heterosexism. Saying boys can't cry is an example of heterosexism. The reason I think the word is superior to homophobia is a) people aren't afraid of gays and lesbians, and two, it ties the repression of homosexuality into sexism and the whole notion of what "proper" roles are for men and women. Homophobia isn't seperate from sexism, but is an aspect of it.

I disagree -- heterosexism is not a concept that should replace homophobia.

AND, I disagree, in that many heterosexuals ARE indeed fearful of homosexuals in that they perceive us as setting out to destroy societal values that are anachronistic in today's society.

And a number of closeted homosexuals are homophobic and are fearful of their own sexual orientation and wish to deny or repress it, even through violent means on other homosexuals.

I also disagree with your idea of including gender superiority ideology in the concept of heterosexism, since sexual orientation and gender are two distinct concepts.

Woman and man are gendered concepts -- homosexual and heterosexual are sexaul orientation concepts. Two separate things. Which is why we have the word sexism when concerning gender, and heterosexism when concering sexual orientation.

	17-10-2003 02:59									#48
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun I disagree

Tough titty. I was using the term before you even knew you were gay.

	17-10-2003 03:01									#49
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quote: AND, I disagree, in that many heterosexuals ARE indeed fearful of homosexuals in that they perceive us as setting out to destroy societal values that are anachronistic in today's society.

As a conservative republican I never understood this stance by my peers... It is so BS it makes me puke. What the hell are societal values anyway and how has homosexuality contributed to it's decay? Damn. I can think of about a billion other reasons why the nuclear family no longer exists... I really don't think homosexuality is responsible for all of the broken families, drug addicts, felons, and wastes of spaces in this country... I blame Clinton!

	17-10-2003 03:15									#50
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Tough titty. I was using the term before you even knew you were gay.

Seriously, MrFun, I don't that that a heterosexual relationship is morally equivalent to a homosexual one, at least not potentially. Of course, not all relationships live to their full potential, but that's a different question.

Does that mean that I think that straight people are better than gay people? NO.

People are men/women first, and homosexual/heterosexual only much later. You cannot define yourself as 'gay' before defining yourself as 'male'.

	17-10-2003 03:20									#51
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quote: People are men/women first, and homosexual/heterosexual only much later. You cannot define yourself as 'gay' before defining yourself as 'male'.

I think you just identified the main reason behind all of societies problems: They identify with a single social factor of themselves and not with the whole of themselves...

	17-10-2003 03:37									#52
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Tough titty. I was using the term before you even knew you were gay.

I was hoping to continue our discussion -- you don't have any counter-arguments to my arguments?

	17-10-2003 03:38									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Japher I think you just identified the main reason behind all of societies problems: They identify with a single social factor of themselves and not with the whole of themselves...

I'm a white cracker of German descent from both sides, an inactive Christian, a graduate student, a man, and I'm gay.


Being gay is not the only aspect of me that I appreciate -- that would be unhealthy and distort my self-concept.

	17-10-2003 03:42									#54
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun I was hoping to continue our discussion -- you don't have any counter-arguments to my arguments?

I feeling playful now.

	17-10-2003 03:43									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Japher Gay-friendly = putting up with MrFun

Yeah, yeah . . . .

I love you too, Japher.

	17-10-2003 03:43									#56
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun I'm a white cracker of German descent from both sides, an inactive Christian, a graduate student, a man, and I'm gay.

Looks like being gay is the least of your problems.

	17-10-2003 03:44									#57
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I feeling playful now.

Well MrFun says the fun is over!!

	17-10-2003 03:45									#58
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I didn't say it was your problem MrFun.

But finding solace in gay communities will turn being gay into problem for you everywhere else you turn. Then we will find you at the steps of some capitol building demanding to be heard, when the whole time you were doing your best to be overlooked.

People who only identify with a group based on race, creed, color, or sexual preference ussually end up becoming the problem instead of becoming the solution... Though there are some great groups that do encourage diversity, freedoms, and those other things the ACLU is suppose to represent but doesnt, most do not...

	17-10-2003 03:46									#59
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Well thank God I don't have that problem -- just ask my straight friends, Japher.

	17-10-2003 03:46									#60
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Well MrFun says the fun is over!!

Don't you wave that thing at me while I'm sticking my tonggue at you. I don't know where you've been!