18-10-2003 19:08									#1
	Diplomacy and trade? Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

So I finally bought civ3 after playing Galactic Civilizations a lot. And o, I feel diplomacy is terrible. I couldn't find threads talking about diplomacy in civ3 here. Either that or they are buried very deep (there may be some in the strategy section, but I want to play without reading strats first).
I find this apalling, actually. In Galciv, at the hardest level, noone wins without a diplomatic bonus and lots of diplomacy. In civ3, this part of the game seems broken. Even on the easiest level, ai's who are ages behind you demand that you give them stuff, and they won't trade one luxury for less than at least 4 or 5 of your own.

So my question is:
Is there something to be done diplomacy-wise in civ3?
I lean mostly in terms of trading. I don't understand how the ai values the various things I can give them. Any clue or thread I could look at?

	18-10-2003 20:57									#2
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(For the upteenth time, but everyone has to start somewhere).
If your civ is bigger than the AI you are (attempting to) trade with, or even if you just have more marketplaces, then an additional luxury is going to give you a lot more happy faces. Therefore, it is worth more to you. Of course, everyone would like to have a "profitable" trade.

If you end up sometime as a small, undeveloped civ in a game, you may realize what great trades you can get. Once in a while, when you have a bad start, continue playing and check out the changed trading dynamic.

When trading, explore the relationships from both sides. Let's suppose that for his luxury "L", he wants a technology of yours. Now see what he will offer for your technology, and he might give luxury "L", a second luxury, a tech, plus gold and gold-per-turn!

	18-10-2003 21:54									#3
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AI attitudes towards you will have an impact on your diplomacy.
Many factors affect this and are discribed by Bamspeedy on CFC.
In short have you made and broke deals, haf wars, in a different type of government, have any of their workers, razed cities, fought their enemies and so on.
Do you have more than they do, something they want, are you making lots of trades with them, do you accept their offers or make counter offers.
Are you stronger, larger and on and on.
If you want a tech in trade and it is not known by many or is one of the war techs or leads to a wonder, it will be costly. If in the case of a lux, it will help you more, in the sense of given happy faces, they will want more. Don't forget thet do not understand the concept that something is better than nothing.
So for the most part, expect to pay extra for things if you want.

	18-10-2003 21:55									#4
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Thanks for the answer, anyplace I could look at to get an understanding of this topic?

	18-10-2003 22:27									#5
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Have a look at the several related threads stored in the Archive

	18-10-2003 22:47									#6
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quote: Don't forget they do not understand the concept that something is better than nothing.

This is key, and yes, it irritates me, too. However, the more I think about it, if the AI did understand this concept, it would play right into the hands of the human player, almost to exploit status (in effect, if not in actual mechanics), so ultimately, I'm glad it doesn't understand that concept.

	18-10-2003 22:53									#7
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The best thread I found in the archives is this one: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=56702 which tends to show diplomacy is weird to say the least.
Of course, if the ai behaved more like humans, humans would exploit this behaviour. But currently, you have little incentive to use the diplomacy screen. Just once in a while.
If I get it correctly, the ai will sell you things at the prive they believe it is worth to you. But then why do they offer me their map in exchange for my map + chivalry?

	19-10-2003 00:57									#8
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quote: Originally posted by LDiCesare ... But then why do they offer me their map in exchange for my map + chivalry?

My personal interpretation is that they are either (1) trying to ask nicely for the "gift", or (2) trying to catch you unawares so you "accidently" agree.

Under (1), I often respond with a counter-offer, to see if they have anything available. With (2), I have actually given the (oops!) wrong response once or twice.

Yesterday, Xerxes demanded spice from me. I refused and he was disappointed. I then offered spice to him to see what he would pay. :$$:

	19-10-2003 01:38									#9
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quote: Originally posted by LDiCesare But currently, you have little incentive to use the diplomacy screen. Just once in a while.

I'm not the hardcorest of players here -I play on Monarch, and sometimes on Emperor when I want a challenge- but I can tell you I use the diplomacy screen all the time.

- On Regent and higher, diplomacy and tech trading is the only way to keep up with research, at least until late game when you have a hegemonic empire. Even then, selling your techs for money will allow you to have 90-100% science, and you'll keep your scientific advantage.

- Luxuries are concentrated on specific areas on the map. Very often, you have to trade for a luxury. And it sometimes happen that you must trade for a resource as well. Luxuries are excellent ways to keep your population in check, without having to raise the entertainment slider. Unlike the entertainment slider, luxuries don't depend on corruption, and it allows you to have a content population in your overly corrupt, just conquered cities.

- On the opposite, when you have surpluses, you can get very good deals for them if you trade with another big nation. I often get 80 gold per turn simply by selling coal or iron to a rather large Civ. I can also sometimes get techs, or luxuries myself.

- If you don't do diplomacy or trade, the other Civs are much more likely to gang up on you when you're dragged in a war. At the beginning of every difficult war, I get as many allies as possible against my target. Sometimes my allies won't do anything, except that they won't trade with my enemies, and they won't threaten me. That's enough. If you don't do diplomacy, you may very well have your enemy do this strategy

	19-10-2003 02:13									#10
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My very limited experience has been that dragging someone into a war is pretty easy and the best way to deal with an opponent so far (divide and conquer).
On regent, I exchanged 2 techs in the beginning, but I'm by far ahead of everyone else now (though the French occasionnally research one tech I don't have, they lag 3 techs behind).

	19-10-2003 02:47									#11
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Well, on regent, the AI does less tech-whoring with other AI civs than on higher levels, so that explains it. Still, unless your style is very expansionist, I suppose you need diplo to acquire resources and luxuries. As well as you want to sell yours and make gobs of money.

But it's true that in regent, you can afford to have a mostly self-centered development strategy, once you have installed a comfortable empire. Such a thing is pretty difficult on higher levels.
One of the reasons why I trade resources / luxuries like hell is to have my neighbours being interested in being at peace with me. Civs you trade with are much more tolerant towards you than those you don't. Actually, a Civ that does not trade with you can very easily declare a trade embargo on you (after nationalism has been researched). And if you suddenly need to be supplied by them. When only two Civs embargo you, it is not a problem. When 2/3 of the world embargo you, it is a grave problem

	19-10-2003 19:34									#12
	Re: Diplomacy and trade? Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by LDiCesare I couldn't find threads talking about diplomacy in civ3 here. Either that or they are buried very deep (there may be some in the strategy section, but I want to play without reading strats first).

You want to read some threads on diplomatic strategy, but want to avoid the Strategy forum?!

quote: In civ3, this part of the game seems broken. Even on the easiest level, ai's who are ages behind you demand that you give them stuff, and they won't trade one luxury for less than at least 4 or 5 of your own.

Have you tried GalCiv on the easiest level? Seems broken to me, too: just get to the Trade Goods first and poof! you're the economic leader for the rest of the game.

quote: Is there something to be done diplomacy-wise in civ3?

Try playing the game more and accept the fact that it is different from GalCiv. I've played both games and I find very little that's better in either system. They both work well but in the end too much knowledge about the AI and trading is exploitative.

quote: I don't understand how the ai values the various things I can give them.

That's a good thing, IMO! Try trading like things for like things, such as Luxuries for Luxuries, or techs for techs. Overall, the best way to figure out how much the AI values a certain commodity is to just see how much cold hard cash it is willing to pay for it. For instance, the value of one of their Workers is ~120 Gold.


Dominae

	20-10-2003 12:04									#13
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If I'm not completely mistaken, tech-whoring-at least in the Ancient and Middle Ages, is gonna become MUCH less of a problem, at all levels, as communications trading in C3:C has now been put back to the printing press!! This means that the chance of a civ giving the same tech to half a dozen OTHER civs has been significantly reduced. Also, map trading has been pushed back in this XP-not being allowed until Navigation!!
I have a feeling that this combination is going to make diplomacy, amongst your nearest neighbours, a damn sight more important !!!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

	20-10-2003 16:03									#14
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The Aussie Lurker:

Sorry to disappoint, but communication trading being pushed back will not change tech-whoring so drastically. I play with modded rules, where map trading has to wait for Navigation, and communication trading has to wait for Radio.

Expansionist Civs are clearly better with those rules, as they get to know everyone faster, and as they can remain the middlemen between Civs that haven't met each other. But the Civs do continue to meet, especially since the AI is often disrespectful of others' borders. You'll get to know everyone on your continent at late-ancient rather than at early ancient. And they tech-whore exactly like before.